Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MarcoPolo · 10-11-2002, 02:28 PM

I'm in a conversation with a christian right now. Here's a portion of it.

--------------------------------------
Me :"The athiest says we don't know how we got here."

Him: "Wrong... they say, 'We know this much: God didn't make us.'"

Me: "The athiest is ready to believe there is a god once it's proven."

Him: "No, they're ever ready to disprove the proof. In other words, they've made up their minds and nothing will convince them (short of God appearing at the second coming and destroying them).

"
--------------------------------

My response to this is simply that the athiest doesn't have enough evidence to prove that a god exists, let alone the christian god.

I mean, if it's PROVEN that a god exists, the athiest will at least believe that a god exists.

We've made up our minds based on the evidence. Once new evidence is found that proves the existence of a god, they'll analyze that evidence and based on that, change their beliefs or stick to their guns.

Am I wrong?

Utnapishtim · 10-11-2002, 02:32 PM

you're right about me. I would be perfectly willing to reevaluate my beliefs on God should some reliable evidence turn up favoring his existence. I would scrutinize the evidence carefully, but if it was good enough I would believe. I may not worship though, if I feel that the being is not worthy of it.

MarcoPolo · 10-11-2002, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Utnapishtim:
you're right about me. I would be perfectly willing to reevaluate my beliefs on God should some reliable evidence turn up favoring his existence. I would scrutinize the evidence carefully, but if it was good enough I would believe. I may not worship though, if I feel that the being is not worthy of it.

Exactly my point.

Apparently chrisitans think athiesm means 'close-mindedism' or something. I think it's the most open-minded position someone can hold.

Bible Humper · 10-11-2002, 03:20 PM

They are forced to rationalise in this manner to explain to themselves how anyone could not believe.

The thought that anyone could find their arguments for the existence of Yahweh less than compelling triggers emotional responses, they have to believe that atheists are religious to comfortably explain it away.

Not Prince Hamlet · 10-11-2002, 03:48 PM

I would logically attack an argument in favor of a God, but if the argument withstood the attack (and those whose logic I respect), then I'd seriously consider believing.

Jeff

Goliath · 10-11-2002, 07:01 PM

Well, personally I hold absolutely no beliefs whatsoever regarding anything supernatural.

Sincerely,

Goliath

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 10-13-2002, 04:23 PM

Well, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If evidence for God were presented I would definitely examine this evidence very carefully.

As some others have said, I am prepared to reconsider my position if some convincing evidence were presented.

The guy you're debating acuses us of making up our minds and not considering different ideas, but keep in mind that he's much more guilty than we are. I, for one, won't be easy to convert but I will believe once convincing evidence is presented. This guy is unwilling to even consider what Atheists really think, even when an Atheist tells him. He's already made up his mind on what Atheists believe and don't believe, and there is little any nonbeliever can tell him which will convince him otherwise. Unless his preacher tells him what we're really like he'll continue to have these misconceptions.

-Nick

P.S. It's athEIst, not athIEst.

Bree · 10-13-2002, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by I ate Pascals Wafer:
Well, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If evidence for God were presented I would definitely examine this evidence very carefully.

As some others have said, I am prepared to reconsider my position if some convincing evidence were presented.

My sentiments exactly.

Rusting Car Bumper · 10-13-2002, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MarcoPolo:
My response to this is simply that the athiest doesn't have enough evidence to prove that a god exists, let alone the christian god.

I mean, if it's PROVEN that a god exists, the athiest will at least believe that a god exists.

The words prove and proven are slippery. Proofs are for math. I would suggest using "evidence" instead of "proven."

Quote:

We've made up our minds based on the evidence. Once new evidence is found that proves the existence of a god, they'll analyze that evidence and based on that, change their beliefs or stick to their guns.

Am I wrong?

One thing that both atheists and believers miss is this: Most things we believe are not the result of direct deductive reasoning. You believe you have 5 fingers on each hand because of direct exeperience to that effect. (I assume you do have 10 fingers of course. My apologies for possibly being insulting if you don't.) We JUSTIFY a good number of things by reason but that isn't why we believe it (or don't believe it) in the first place (in most cases.)

I cannot believe in god any more than I can believe I have 14 fingers. That is, its not a choice or even really a conscious examination of evidence (although I certainly can consciously examine the evidence).

God is not supposed to be an abstraction. God is supposed to a real substantive thing. Thus, its not so much new evidence but new experience.

DC

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalChicken ]

Albion · 10-13-2002, 05:32 PM

Quote:

I would be perfectly willing to reevaluate my beliefs on God should some reliable evidence turn up favoring his existence. I would scrutinize the evidence carefully, but if it was good enough I would believe.

You would believe? Or you would accept on the basis of evidence? I mean, doesn't belief need faith rather than evidence, and isn't that the problem?

10-11-2002, 02:28 PM	#1
MarcoPolo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 131	What an athiest believes I'm in a conversation with a christian right now. Here's a portion of it. -------------------------------------- Me :"The athiest says we don't know how we got here." Him: "Wrong... they say, 'We know this much: God didn't make us.'" Me: "The athiest is ready to believe there is a god once it's proven." Him: "No, they're ever ready to disprove the proof. In other words, they've made up their minds and nothing will convince them (short of God appearing at the second coming and destroying them). " -------------------------------- My response to this is simply that the athiest doesn't have enough evidence to prove that a god exists, let alone the christian god. I mean, if it's PROVEN that a god exists, the athiest will at least believe that a god exists. We've made up our minds based on the evidence. Once new evidence is found that proves the existence of a god, they'll analyze that evidence and based on that, change their beliefs or stick to their guns. Am I wrong?

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10-11-2002, 02:32 PM	#2
Utnapishtim Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 330	you're right about me. I would be perfectly willing to reevaluate my beliefs on God should some reliable evidence turn up favoring his existence. I would scrutinize the evidence carefully, but if it was good enough I would believe. I may not worship though, if I feel that the being is not worthy of it.

10-11-2002, 03:20 PM	#4
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	They are forced to rationalise in this manner to explain to themselves how anyone could not believe. The thought that anyone could find their arguments for the existence of Yahweh less than compelling triggers emotional responses, they have to believe that atheists are religious to comfortably explain it away.

10-11-2002, 03:48 PM	#5
Not Prince Hamlet Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,309	I would logically attack an argument in favor of a God, but if the argument withstood the attack (and those whose logic I respect), then I'd seriously consider believing. Jeff

10-11-2002, 07:01 PM	#6
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	Well, personally I hold absolutely no beliefs whatsoever regarding anything supernatural. Sincerely, Goliath

10-13-2002, 04:23 PM	#7
I ate Pascal's Wafer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,460	Well, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If evidence for God were presented I would definitely examine this evidence very carefully. As some others have said, I am prepared to reconsider my position if some convincing evidence were presented. The guy you're debating acuses us of making up our minds and not considering different ideas, but keep in mind that he's much more guilty than we are. I, for one, won't be easy to convert but I will believe once convincing evidence is presented. This guy is unwilling to even consider what Atheists really think, even when an Atheist tells him. He's already made up his mind on what Atheists believe and don't believe, and there is little any nonbeliever can tell him which will convince him otherwise. Unless his preacher tells him what we're really like he'll continue to have these misconceptions. -Nick P.S. It's athEIst, not athIEst.

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