CX

Incidentally, can you provide a definitive explanation of what constitutes Koine?

spin

It's not that I don't accept this or that. The task is what is a suitably large body of data which reflects what might be called Koine Greek. As I once pointed out to you there was a comparative in the nt which didn't even have the positive form in the corpus

1) An NT lexicon only provides stuff about NT.
2) The NA27 apparatus provides variations of NT.
3) Liddell&Scott provide basic Greek tools.

Where is the generic authority for Koine? Nowhere in this list, though there are works dedicated to it. Perhaps this is a little more useful.

Baur, Arndt & Gingrich "A Gk-Eng Lexicon of the NT and Other Early Christian Lit".

It does include a fair amount of other text sources to raise the corpus of vocabulary.

But why do I have to do the work for you?

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: spin ]</p>

CX

Nonsense. L&S is a comprehensive Greek Lexicon covering all words and forms including during the Hellenistic period covering every Greek MSS discovered up to 1940 with a supplement in recent editions that includes discoveries after 1940 and including the vast body, if not all, of Koine literature.

You act as though Koine sprung out of a vacuum. Though you will no doubt assert that you already know this, Koine is largley a synthesis of Attic-Ionic dialects with limited additions from other regional dialects. It further stands as the precursor to what we would call modern Greek. It was THE national language of the Empire all the way through the Hellenistic period and is attested to by the termendous body of literature from that period not limited only to Xian sources. I'm sure the Baur text is a terrific resource, for biblical language, but it in no way supercedes L&S as a comprhensive lexicon suitable for the study of Hellenistic Greek. I would imagine it does not include any of the secular/non-Xian sources found at Oxyrhynchus. You are quibbling because you have no clue what you are talking about. Your objections don't even make sense.

CX

Amazing! If one does a search of Amazon.com, this is the first title that comes up. Isn't that a strange coincidence?

Don't get me wrong, this looks to be a fine resource. But I find it ironic that someone who professes little knowledge of Koine would just happen to come up with the first item in a list at Amazon.com. Surely you don't own this $125 tome do you? Have you consulted it? I submit that you are an unmitigated fraud. Not only that but it still isn't any more valuable than L&S. Save possibly for detailed understanding of the NT itself which is exactly what you were originally objecting to.

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: CX ]</p>

Haran

CX, I think you and spin are both being a little silly (no serious offense meant since I have been in other threads).

I'm not sure I completely understand spin's rejection of the Lidell-Scott for Koine, but here is an interesting source:

<a href="http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/religious_studies/NTBib/lexicon.html" target="_blank">Lexicons</a>

If you'll notice, it mentions: "Liddell, H. G., and Scott, R., eds. A Greek-English Lexicon. New edition revised and augmented in 2 vols. by H. S. Jones, et al. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1948. Covers both classical and Koine Greek. There is an abridged edition which the serious scholar cannot afford to substitute."

However, I doubt that spin knew of BAG from amazon.com. It has been considered one of the premier lexicons for quite some time (see above website: "Bauer, Walter. A Greek Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979. Also listed under the names Arndt and Gingrich and is commonly so called from these authors who were associated with the revision of the work; sometimes designated BAG. Still the best Lexicon, to date, for the NT student and scholar. An abridged edition is now available but should not be used as a substitute for the larger work."

However, the BAG is now outdated and has been superceded by the BDAG which I also linked to at amazon.com in a previous post. It is $125 from what I remember and I do have it. It is also included in the newest version of Bibleworks software.

Perhaps spin intended the most recent edition, BDAG but he left out Danker which seems to indicate to me that he is thinking of the previous edition, the BAG.

Here is a couple of interesting reviews of the BDAG, one from <a href="http://journalofbiblicalstudies.org/Issue3/Book_Review/bdag_review.htm" target="_blank">JBS</a> and one from <a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2001/2001-06-01.html" target="_blank">Bryn Mawr</a>.

Hope this helps.

Oh yeah, CX, I'm not sure if you've read the Intros to NT TC by the Alands and by Metzger, but if you have then you'll have heard of the Von Soden and Tichendorf critical editions of the NT. They are quite old now, but still contain much information that can't be found in the NA27 or UBS4. Anyway, they are both on-line at <a href="http://rosetta.atla-certr.org/TC/TC.html" target="_blank">TC: A Journal of Biblical Criticism</a> which you might be interested in.

<a href="http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/vonSodenGNT" target="_blank">Von Soden</a>
<a href="http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/Ebind/docs/TC/" target="_blank">Tichendorf</a>

Enjoy,
Haran

CX

I imagine I am being a little silly, but I really do think that spin is an annoying pseudo-intellectual who, as someone else on this forum said, "argues by assertion and belittlement". I don't beleive he knows the first thing about Koine Greek and his tiresome and nonsensical objections in this thread only serve to reinforce that. I admit I have perhaps only heard mention of the Baur lexicon. My primary lexicon is Thayer's which I find adequate for NT study. If I get really hung up I use the online version lf L&S provided by the Perseus project or go to the library. The notion that L&S is not a suitable lexicon for the study of Hellenistic greek could only be put forward by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. I admire your abiltiy to be much more generous than I, but perhaps it is because I am most disgust by self-professed non-theists who are ignorant and dismissive as a matter of course (I acknowledge that I become dismissive when someone rubs me the wrong way, but I try to be respectful. I have wasted too much time on this already.

Incidentally the Tischendorf critical text is mentioned in the intro to NA27. I've never consulted it, but it might be interesting. I didn't realize they had it at TC. I haven't been there in some time.

spin

Haran,

Bauer, which my brother called Arndt & Gingrich, is what I had in mind. I haven't had my hands on the revamped version (or A&G for a lawng time).

L&S is a dictionary which covers a wide range of Greek. One doesn't expect to know anything specifically about Koine from it, as it has to cater for all varieties from the earliest to the latest forms of Greek from different areas. It simply isn't particularly helpful for someone working in the nt context. This is not a criticism of L&S: it's scope is just too wide.

Using a modern dictionary with Shakespeare is often not useful at all: just consider what the word "nice" means now and what it meant then. You use a dictionary or lexicon which is best suited to the era.

The problem I have tried to explain is that the corpus of words from the nt is far to small to give an idea of the state of the language. How many missing forms are there? And how many hapax legomenoi are there for example? If one doesn't have a range of uses for a word one cannot get any idea of the collocations, or even its significance in the context.

cx seems to be too thick to understand what is being talked about.

Iasion

Greetings all,

pardon me, been busy off-line

Yes, Kuhn's argument has flaws, thanks for the many posts here...

yet,
may I remind readers about a key issue regarding Ignatius -
his writing's are very corrupt

I think we should be careful about 'quoting' Ignatius - his texts are the POOREST quality in terms of authenticity.

This is why the normally WEAK argument about words which are similar being confused may be relevant - we really DON'T know the exact words he used.

QuentinJ