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Old 05-22-2003, 10:27 AM   #41
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Disagreed (to some extent). Many other species possess the same qualities as the human species. That is to say, the desire to procreate, seek out food, find shelter, and deal with predators/threats (fight or flight syndrome). Only humans are vain enough to think the Earth is truly ours to do with as we like.

We poison our air, our water, dump toxic chemicals illegaly, and conduct war. This is an advantage?

Just study other species of our planet and you'll find many examples of those who work, play, and live in harmony for the benefit of the group, not the individual.
I think that the point being made is that in general natural selection does not specifically favour traits that promote the survival of the species, so any efforts that we make to help our species to survive would give us an advantage over other species, all other things being equal. As has been pointed out, all other things are not equal, and we may well follow the vast majority of species that have inhabited this orb into extinction. Time will tell.

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Old 05-22-2003, 10:31 AM   #42
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Agreed,

No other species is guilty of taking naturally occuring biological specimens and developing them into 'weapons grade' agents deemed at mass destruction of entire populations/countries/civilizations.
Gee, you make it sound like a bad thing.
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Anthrax occurs naturally in Africa, humans made it into a weapon.
The Black Plague still exists, humans made it into a weapon.

Just two examples of many. Theoretically, it would only require a single event of using these 'weapon grade' biological agents which could (conceivably) eradicate the human race.. (or a major majority of it)
The latter is more likely by far. Just keep in mind that no other species is capable of taking natural occurring... etc. Humans are not particularly evil compared to other organisms, only more capable of manipulating their environment.

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Old 05-22-2003, 11:00 AM   #43
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Humans are not particularly evil compared to other organisms, only more capable of manipulating their environment.
Yes, manipulating their environment....FOR EVIL!

*diabolical laughter*

Yeah, it actually seems that humans might very well be able to cling to life even if the majority of the species were wiped out. Our intelligence allows us to plan, scheme, make tools, and survive. Our language allows us to pass on our knowledge to our offspring and to coordinate efficiently with other survivors. We might just be as robust as, dare I say it, the cockroach (I know, I know, that's some pretty elite company) and the twinkie. Then again, who knows what will happen in the future...we very well might find a way to make the planet unsuitable for any life. Or we might live in a happy communist Star Trek world (no reason to be overly pessimistic, right?).
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Old 05-22-2003, 11:35 AM   #44
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I think that the point being made is that in general natural selection does not specifically favour traits that promote the survival of the species,
Peez
I thought that was exactly what natural selection accomplished. Allowed the species to adapt, or else become extinct.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...
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Old 05-22-2003, 11:39 AM   #45
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I thought that was exactly what natural selection accomplished. Allowed the species to adapt, or else become extinct.
Yes populations adapt, but it is the result of competition between individuals within the population to pass their genes on. There are potentially other levels of selection operating, but in the grad scheme of things, competition between conspecific individuals appears to be the most common and important by far.
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Old 05-22-2003, 11:46 AM   #46
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So competition among individuals in a population override competition with environmental factors?

For the record, I'm not a geneticist or a biologist. My gig is distributing electrons in an orderly, controlled manner.

However, one of the last articles I read on Neanderthals suggested their extinction was due to the inability to adapt to climactic change.

Another example that comes to mind. The Starling.. (referred to in this area as the 'black bird'). It was introduced into our environment to rid the area of some sort of nuisance insect. The environment suited it so well... the dammm things have taken over.

So.. which predominates natural selection? competition among indiviuals within a population, or competition with environmental factors? Just curious.

If we were attacked with an advance strain of black plague, wouldn't survival be determined by resistance to the disease, rather than competition among each other?
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Old 05-22-2003, 11:49 AM   #47
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Originally posted by Lobstrosity
Yes, manipulating their environment....FOR EVIL!

*diabolical laughter*

Or we might live in a happy communist Star Trek world (no reason to be overly pessimistic, right?).
Then the question arises...

What do we do with those pesky Klingon thingies?????
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Old 05-22-2003, 12:07 PM   #48
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So competition among individuals in a population override competition with environmental factors? . . . .

So.. which predominates natural selection? competition among indiviuals within a population, or competition with environmental factors? Just curious.
The environment establishes the "playing-field" in which the indiviudals compete. (Does that make sense?)
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Old 05-22-2003, 12:11 PM   #49
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Originally posted by RufusAtticus
The environment establishes the "playing-field" in which the indiviudals compete. (Does that make sense?)

yep....

And since mankind is doing quite a number on fucking up our environment...

Back to my original assertion...

Extinction or near-extinction would be our next evolutionary step...
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Old 05-22-2003, 12:52 PM   #50
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Another example that comes to mind. The Starling.. (referred to in this area as the 'black bird'). It was introduced into our environment to rid the area of some sort of nuisance insect. The environment suited it so well... the dammm things have taken over.
Interesting story, here.

The starling was introduced in the 1800s by a homesick (and wealthy) immigrent, who wanted to have all of the birds mentioned by Shakspear around him. As I recall, it took several tries and a number of years to get a stable population going. I think the guy's name was Emil something.

It's been a lot of years since I read that, and I have no ready reference.

But, it sounds like something an idiot, H. sapiens would do.

Near extinction is really only pre-extinction. If our population(s) becomes too small and/or isolated from others,, our species is history.

We survive so well because we are the among the greatest non-specialists this world has ever seen. It does put us up there, close to the cockroach, doesn't it?

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