fleetmouse

The human race is capable of warping its perspective to believe in just about anything, and frequently does.

So how are we to separate the true beliefs from the nonsense? If someone has truly tuned him or herself with the right attitude and transformed into a delicately balanced radio receiver picking up divine broadcasts, then surely there are things they would know that would not be knowable any other way.

But as Carl Sagan pointed out in Demon Haunted World, the substance of transmissions from the Great Beyond is humdrum and generic tripe like "love is everything" and "join the galactic brotherhood". There is never any valid prophecy (not one Christian or psychic predicted 9-11, except in retrospect ha-ha), never any new scientific or mathematical knowledge--even if some are contacting higher beings, is it worth the effort?

I'm sure you're just itching to pepper me with excuses as to why God never seems to know any more than his ignorant prophets could be expected to...

SecularFuture

That’s a very good point. There are many naturalistic ways to explain the origin or the tree, the origin of all life, etc. The God concept derived from primitive thinking. There is no evidence, or reason, to believe in a God.

Autonemesis

If this were so, it'd be one more reason to suppose that God, if he exists, only wants sycophants in Heaven.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

K,
This is what I mean. I would only relax the 'empirical evidence' statement to 'evidence' and would change 'only appears' to 'appears'.


Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

SecularFuture,

What if the lack of evidence you see is due to your disposition towards God...or the idea of God?


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Bud,
Which, of course, makes perfect sense...
God wishes to know those who seek Him.


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

K

Relaxing the "empirical evidence" to "evidence" is what people do when they try to show that any of the other things I listed earlier are true.

If the evidence for God is there, it is no better than the evidence for astrology and Tarot cards.

TerryTryon

SOMMS:
This phenomenon, I believe, is referred to in psi experiments as "the shyness effect." Why is it that certain experiments designed to quantify ESP, telekenesis, or other psychic ability show promise in the beginning, But when they are repeated by experimenters who deliberately tighten the controls and thereby scare away the beasties that make psi phenomena work, the effect vanishes.
You might also refer to Moroni 10:4-5 in the Book of Mormon:

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Since so many belief systems may be verified only by eschewing skepicism and adopting a humble, faithful desire to find the target system true and since so many people do indeed claim to receive through revelation verification of wildly inconsistent belief systems, how can a person discern that his revelation is accurate and all those that disagree with his are self-deception? And what of those who have revelations one day only to discover through a humble, faithful desire that something else is true the next day?

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: TerryTryon ]</p>

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

K,
How would you know?

Thoughts and comments welcomed,


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Psycho Economist

True. But that's the problem. We skeptics (of any stripe) cannot relax that assumption, because that's what it means to be skeptical / scientifically minded / whatever else you want to call it. Evidence that doesn't withstand critical scrutiny will not convince us... about gods, UFO's, ESP, near-death experiences, or any other kind of extraordinary claim.

I'd go so far as to say that there is no such thing as "non-empirical" evidence.