Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 12-10-2002, 07:13 AM

Quote:

In this corner, well-known for his rock-solid integrity, honesty, and knowledge, Buffman! And in this corner, the newcomer Radorth! Will Buffman's knowledge and love of true history be enough?

Is this the same Buffman who claimed credit for finding quotes after I quoted from them, told him what they were about, and who said them, and who later denied I made any contribution to the thread when all he did was locate them using my ques?

What a bunch self-aggrandizing crap. He had his chance to prove his "integrity" when somebody claimed Washington never mentioned Jesus, and he passed on it.

Rad

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]

Mageth · 12-10-2002, 07:36 AM

We have every reason to believe Constitution could not have been created without the inspiration of God and IMO Christ

Why would god write/inspire both the first and second commandment and the first amendment? The two seem to conflict to me.

1st/2nd cmd - love God [specifically the J-C god] with all <...>, have no other gods ("before me")

1st amd - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Radorth · 12-10-2002, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Why would god write/inspire both the first and second commandment and the first amendment? The two seem to conflict to me.

The establishment of a state religion has invariably hindered the spread of spiritual truth. God's been around awhile and knew that long before Jefferson or Hooker.

Rad

MrDarwin · 12-10-2002, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth:
We have every reason to believe Constitution could not have been created without the inspiration of God and IMO Christ

The fact that the founders, and the vast majority of Americans at the time of the founding of the country, considered themselves Christian does not demonstrate that Christian principles inspired, or were incorporated into, the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, or U.S. law. Claiming such a connection would also imply that Nazi Germany was a direct product of Christianity.

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

"Self-evident"? Why not claim that they came directly from God, or from the Bible, rather than attributing them to some vague "creator"? Maybe because no rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are to be found in the Bible? (I'm also curious to find out the Biblical or Christian basis of the Bill of Rights, starting with Amendment #1.)

Mageth · 12-10-2002, 07:47 AM

The establishment of a state religion has invariably hindered the spread of spiritual truth. God's been around awhile and knew that long before Jefferson or Hooker.

Then why did god "inspire" the establishment of the State religion (Judaism) in OT Israel? Did he screw up and learn his lesson?

The First Amendment is to ensure religious freedom and freedom from religion, not to promote the spread of spiritual truth. The founding fathers realized that, even if god didn't, and that was their inspiration for the prohibitions therein.

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

Radorth · 12-10-2002, 07:51 AM

(Gulp) Buffman, I did read the other thread referenced above a few minutes ago, and I must say you gained some credence with me by denying that Washington said "this is in no sense a Christian nation."

I trust you appreciate extremists on both sides make up stuff, and I am glad to see you take both sides to task.

Rad

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]

Radorth · 12-10-2002, 07:58 AM

Quote:

The First Amendment is to ensure religious freedom and freedom from religion, not to promote the spread of spiritual truth.

But that is the ironic effect, as God well knew. "he takes the wise in their own craftiness."

Quote:

The founding fathers realized that, even if god didn't, and that was their inspiration for the prohibitions therein.

I see, so God didn't but 50 Christian founders did. Sorry, you're stretching my faith too far, but you are free to believe any nonsense you want.

BTW, it has been only skeptics who have recommended God interfere in human affairs by making the laws of physics arbitrary and negating the principles which motivate the ACLU. He obviously prefers to let people make their own religious decisions.

Criminy.

Rad

Radcliffe Emerson · 12-10-2002, 07:58 AM

George Washington was an atheist. He refused to partake in communion, and when it was complained about while he was president that it set a bad example, his reply was to cease going to church altogether. On his death bed he made no mention at ALL of god or jebus, and refused to have a clergy present.
In all his letters, there is not ONE mention of Jesus anywhere, not ONE.

Radorth · 12-10-2002, 08:03 AM

LOL!

I've already explained why he didn't take communion, which had to do more with his integrity than his beliefs. If he was an atheist, he was the biggest hypocrite of all the founders. Right?

Rad

Radorth · 12-10-2002, 08:05 AM

Rad sticks toe in Amazon. Toe all gone.

12-10-2002, 07:47 AM	#25
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	The establishment of a state religion has invariably hindered the spread of spiritual truth. God's been around awhile and knew that long before Jefferson or Hooker. Then why did god "inspire" the establishment of the State religion (Judaism) in OT Israel? Did he screw up and learn his lesson? The First Amendment is to ensure religious freedom and freedom from religion, not to promote the spread of spiritual truth. The founding fathers realized that, even if god didn't, and that was their inspiration for the prohibitions therein. [ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

12-10-2002, 07:51 AM	#26
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	(Gulp) Buffman, I did read the other thread referenced above a few minutes ago, and I must say you gained some credence with me by denying that Washington said "this is in no sense a Christian nation." I trust you appreciate extremists on both sides make up stuff, and I am glad to see you take both sides to task. Rad [ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]</p>

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12-10-2002, 07:36 AM	#22
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	We have every reason to believe Constitution could not have been created without the inspiration of God and IMO Christ Why would god write/inspire both the first and second commandment and the first amendment? The two seem to conflict to me. 1st/2nd cmd - love God [specifically the J-C god] with all <...>, have no other gods ("before me") 1st amd - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

12-10-2002, 07:58 AM	#28
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	George Washington was an atheist. He refused to partake in communion, and when it was complained about while he was president that it set a bad example, his reply was to cease going to church altogether. On his death bed he made no mention at ALL of god or jebus, and refused to have a clergy present. In all his letters, there is not ONE mention of Jesus anywhere, not ONE.

12-10-2002, 08:03 AM	#29
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	LOL! I've already explained why he didn't take communion, which had to do more with his integrity than his beliefs. If he was an atheist, he was the biggest hypocrite of all the founders. Right? Rad

12-10-2002, 08:05 AM	#30
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	Rad sticks toe in Amazon. Toe all gone.

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