Ted Hoffman

Doherty does not specify.

from Allegorical Interpretation
Philo refers to these divine lights as heaven.

From Ethiopian Kebra agast
These lights of course refer to Jesus - the embodiment of the glory of God. So Philo is praying God open his treasurehouse to them so that they can perceive the word which God has impregnated with the lights. The word (wisdom) in this context thus refers to the virgin woman and the lights, the Logos.

I do not know however, whether this is the passage Doherty had in mind.

Ted Hoffman

You mean Anna, from the infancy Gospel of James? Or are you confusing JBaps birth with Jesus birth?

1 Corinthians 13:

Ted Hoffman

The Carpocratians were a sect that embraced a "birth" of Jesus similar to the Buddhist one where Jesus was born in an ordinary manner like you and me BUT posessed a soul which had in former lives attained wisdom and exceptional virtue.

Its likely that its the Ebionites are behind the Petrine/Gospel form of xstianity but it seems the Ebionites were later absorbed to Gnosticism.

Others like Valentinus believed Jesus attained godliness by subjugating his flesh and other ascetic practices.

Even ideas like Yoga, which enable one to attain Yogi (a spiritual status - overcoming the physical self) originated from the idea of man attaining godhood.

The manner in which the Logos/saviour figure attained godhood varied per sect and per culture. in the Pistis Sophia document (a gnosis work), the way in which Mary becomes pregnant (after embracing a stranger) is different from the angel Gabriel version in the Gospels.

There is still the idea that the spirit entered Jesus when the dove descended while JBap was baptising him (meaning Jesus was born like u and me but got the holy spirit on baptism). This doctrine was held by the Cerinthians and Basilideans too.

The Manichaeans believed Jesus descended from heaven as a 30 year old man and that his body was illusory just like the dove that descended upon him during baptism.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Take your pick.

Geoff Hudson

No, the account of Jesus' birth is fiction, but John's is fact.

I would hope that no adult spoke as a child, unless in fun. The editor's 1 Cor.13:11 is hardly profound, is it?

(11)When I was [a child] {impure}, I talked [like a child] {with the spirit of deceit.}

[,I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child - surprise, surprise!]

(12)When I [became a man] {received the Spirit}, [I] {he} put …
[childish ways behind me.]
…{away the impure spirit, and I talked with the Spirit of God}.

(12)Now we see but a poor reflection {of the Spirit} as in a mirror; then we shall see {the Spirit} face to face.

Incidentally, 1 Cor.13 is all about the Spirit - not soppy love.

Geoff

Ted Hoffman

If Jesus birth story, per the gospels, is pure fiction, while Mary was real, how do we get to know the real Mary as opposed to the fictional one? I mean, from whose writings? what methodology?

Which story of Jesus' birth is real? (from those known that are extant)

From where have you got your story about Mary breaking up with Joseph? Why is it any credible than any other story about Mary and Joseph?

Your explanation about 1 Cor 13: very refreshing . I agree with you. (Though am lost on the soppy love bit)

Geoff Hudson

Its all in the cover-up story of Paulina and Mundus after the TF, to which the NT accounts must be correlated in time.

Mary was not filled with a child but with the Spirit. No child, no Jesus. She became a follower of John, and probably his wife, which was why Mary entered "Zechariah's" home (Lk.1:29) - not just for a womanly chat with Elizabeth. When this occured, Zechariah had been dead for a number of years - he had been murdered in the temple (before John was born) for uttering heretical prayers about the Spirit.

About 1 Cor.13, just try substituting "the Spirit" for "love".

Geoff

Ted Hoffman

** Paulina was married to Saturninus and not Mundus. Joseph was betrothed to Mary.

** Paulina was clearly tricked into having sex - its not clear exactly what happened to bring about Mary's conception, whether consensual or non-consensual sex took place - assuming she existed.

** Ide, the woman who approached the parents of Paulina, is not anywhere in Joseph/Mary parrallel.

** Mary's parents played no part in her pregnancy.

** Nobody gets punished for events related to Marys conception.

Quote:

Mary was not filled with a child but with the Spirit. No child, no Jesus. She became a follower of John, and probably his wife, which was why Mary entered "Zechariah's" home (Lk.1:29) - not just for a womanly chat with Elizabeth. When this occured, Zechariah had been dead for a number of years - he had been murdered in the temple (before John was born) for uttering heretical prayers about the Spirit.

Slow down. So, is Mary fictional? (please this time answer this question).

Quote:

About 1 Cor.13, just try substituting "the Spirit" for "love". Geoff

Spirit, love, God, word etc same thing.

mark9950

Your hypothesis explains to me many things one of which that the Bible is borrowed material from the ancient enuma and epic.

Since these two writings predate the bible there in my opinion is no doubt at this point that the bible is nothing but myth and legend taken from the enuma and epic.

I read them both the enuma and epic on the web and in my eyes these two writings are where the gods and the so called God came from.

Radcliffe Emerson

Well I don't believe anyone in the world knew about Jesus until Paul made him up, so I guess I will take my pick from those.

Ted Hoffman

There is Jesus the Nazarene and there is Christ Logos. I doubt that Paul made up any of them - he just believed in a zealous manner.