Freethought & Rationalism Archive

virgio · 02-28-2002, 04:09 PM

echidna, that is indeed a fine distinction that you make. If you say "Christianity is a pack of delusions about a Santa figure-skye faerie that is intellectually and morally bankrupt", you *are* insulting Christians, implicitly, with that statement.

As for respecting beliefs, I think that's a very good discussion for people 'round here to be having. I try to understand how people view their universe instead of passing a moral judgement on those beliefs, or the way in which they arrive at those beliefs. I already realize that I think my method is best, for me, otherwise I probably wouldn't have it. There is no point in me continually deriding every other belief that seems to "oppose" mine. I find far more value in understanding and appreciating how others think.

virgio

ju'iblex · 02-28-2002, 10:17 PM

its nice to know you choose to try and understand, and try and keep an open mind about other peoples beliefs. But...

Quote:

As for respecting beliefs, I think that's a very good discussion for people 'round here to be having.

what people say around here, when they badmouth Christians is a direct result of living in this theistic world. Continuously, we as atheists are being confronted by Christians, we are discriminated against, and our beliefs are constantly attacked. this is where people come to get away from the intolerance of others and are able to relate to others here. Anything which may seem to deride others beliefs are only because exactly the same thing happens to us far more often than it should.

and where did you get that little Santa faerie thing from anyway? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Ms. Siv · 02-28-2002, 11:09 PM

callina,

Quote:

So, I don't actually respect their beliefs in the sense of "showing honor and esteem". Am I being hypocritical? Should I care?

Respect only means that you respect their rights, as long as it doesn't interfere with your own (or anyone else's) is all. Its about tolerance.
But my point was that there are limits to respect too and some people demand a whole lot of other things in the name of respect or tolerance. And they're not justified in expecting that.
Respect does not mean saying that someone's beliefs are rational even though their irrationality sticks out for miles.
Respect does not mean that you hide your skepticism just because it will be unpopular.
Respect does not mean that you pretend all views are equally valid when you know they're definitely not.
I think logical fallacies, if excluded from an argument, will, by themselves ensure respect (the kind of respect thats warranted, anyway!)

Echidna,

Quote:

Much human conflict, including the frequent flaming on this board arises largely from irritating each other with our ideas. No direct threat or coercion, just that we are each very attached to our own belief system. Question that (or worse, insult it), and your questioning the rational basis for my morality and my actions, deep stuff, stuff which our egos will usually resist. There’s often a fine line between attacking ideas and attacking the person.

It is a fine line, but a well-distinguished one.
The problem with theism vs atheism or other arguments is that people take criticisms too personally. Thats actually as much a logical fallacy as an Ad Homein attack is.

- Sivakami.

echidna · 02-28-2002, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by virgio:
As for respecting beliefs, I think that's a very good discussion for people 'round here to be having. I try to understand how people view their universe instead of passing a moral judgement on those beliefs, or the way in which they arrive at those beliefs. I already realize that I think my method is best, for me, otherwise I probably wouldn't have it. There is no point in me continually deriding every other belief that seems to "oppose" mine. I find far more value in understanding and appreciating how others think.

I agree (how dull).

Deriding other�s beliefs however is a bit of a national sport here at II.

I also slightly share with many here a degree of mental gymnastics, the sport of testing one�s ideas to criticism, and checking others. Explaining one�s own beliefs by process of elimination often also involves dismissing other beliefs. Ouch.

Oh, and beware the intellectual bullies.

MassAtheist · 03-01-2002, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompous Bastard:
On a related note, does anyone else find it incredibly disrespectful when someone responds to "I respect you beliefes, even if I don't agree with them,"

I use a slight variant on this phrase. "While I don't necessarily share your beliefs, I respect your right to hold them". I usually will follow with asking that they respect my rights as well.

I say it this way because I don't respect their beliefs. I think their beliefs are a load of crap. But I sitll recognize their rights.

callina · 03-01-2002, 01:13 PM

Yes, that's more like it. I don't necessarily respect the beliefs, but I respect their right to have those beliefs. I had never really thought about it like that.

Ojuice5001 · 03-01-2002, 05:20 PM

Here's my opinion. Respecting someone's beliefs means this: You try to understand why he thinks they are good beliefs, and if they are good enough reasons, you are said to respect their beliefs.

Here's an example: I don't share the Christian belief that the Supreme God cares about the typical individual. The human race in general, fine. A few of the individuals, why not? All of them, no. There may or may not be a Supreme God, but one that values every one of the 6 billion human lives makes no sense to me.

So if I don't respect this doctrine of God's love, I will consider it an absurd idea that should in no wise be taken seriously. When thinking about why people believe it, I will attribute it to unflattering sources like wishful thinking or never having questioned what their parents told them.

But if I respect this idea, I will think about what a Christian would say in response to the question. They would probably say that few impulses could drive a Supreme Being to create the universe, and love is one of them. They will also point out that the kind of Supreme God they believe in has the intelligence necessary to think and care about everything in the universe. These premises are questionable, but I can see why they make sense.

Of course, according to this theory, not all beliefs can or should be respected. Among Christian beliefs, the Atonement and hell come to mind as beliefs that I cannot imagine myself respecting.

kingcrim99 · 03-02-2002, 08:24 AM

I've always been hesitant to say "I respect your beliefs", because I don't want it to be interpreted "I don't share your beliefs, but I hold them to be valid nonetheless." In a nontrivial set of cases, that's totally false. I think I'm going to steal from James AD from now on:

Quote:

It is more honest to tell someone that you respect their sincerity.

...which is exactly what I've been trying to get at when I've been tempted to say "I respect your beliefs", most of the time.

I'll save "respecting beliefs" for when I disagree with someone, but find their position in some way intellectually defensible.

joedad · 03-02-2002, 01:17 PM

Quote:

James AD:
I personally don't use that phrase, because it is disingenuous. It is more honest to tell someone that you respect their sincerity.
Every self respecting person must act upon their own beliefs. That is what you have to respect. But that is why beliefs are important, and why we argue about them. Good intentions are not enough. If our beliefs are wrong, actions based upon them are misguided.

I'm not exactly sure what you are intending to say in that last sentence, but my take is that our actions define our beliefs, and not the other way around. Please pardon me if I appear slow.

Quote:

Jane Bovary:
The existence of God is surely an intellectual question, not an ethical one, and as such, should be as open to the harsh glare of critical scrutiny as anything else.

Couldn't have said it better.

joe

Brian63 · 03-02-2002, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jane Bovary:
The existence of God is surely an intellectual question, not an ethical one, and as such, should be as open to the harsh glare of critical scrutiny as anything else.

I may just be misreading you here, but are you saying that ethical questions should not be open to critical scrutiny?

Brian

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02-28-2002, 04:09 PM	#11
virgio Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 22	echidna, that is indeed a fine distinction that you make. If you say "Christianity is a pack of delusions about a Santa figure-skye faerie that is intellectually and morally bankrupt", you are insulting Christians, implicitly, with that statement. As for respecting beliefs, I think that's a very good discussion for people 'round here to be having. I try to understand how people view their universe instead of passing a moral judgement on those beliefs, or the way in which they arrive at those beliefs. I already realize that I think my method is best, for me, otherwise I probably wouldn't have it. There is no point in me continually deriding every other belief that seems to "oppose" mine. I find far more value in understanding and appreciating how others think. virgio

03-01-2002, 01:13 PM	#16
callina Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 87	Yes, that's more like it. I don't necessarily respect the beliefs, but I respect their right to have those beliefs. I had never really thought about it like that.

03-01-2002, 05:20 PM	#17
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Here's my opinion. Respecting someone's beliefs means this: You try to understand why he thinks they are good beliefs, and if they are good enough reasons, you are said to respect their beliefs. Here's an example: I don't share the Christian belief that the Supreme God cares about the typical individual. The human race in general, fine. A few of the individuals, why not? All of them, no. There may or may not be a Supreme God, but one that values every one of the 6 billion human lives makes no sense to me. So if I don't respect this doctrine of God's love, I will consider it an absurd idea that should in no wise be taken seriously. When thinking about why people believe it, I will attribute it to unflattering sources like wishful thinking or never having questioned what their parents told them. But if I respect this idea, I will think about what a Christian would say in response to the question. They would probably say that few impulses could drive a Supreme Being to create the universe, and love is one of them. They will also point out that the kind of Supreme God they believe in has the intelligence necessary to think and care about everything in the universe. These premises are questionable, but I can see why they make sense. Of course, according to this theory, not all beliefs can or should be respected. Among Christian beliefs, the Atonement and hell come to mind as beliefs that I cannot imagine myself respecting.

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