telemachus

Thanks, Demosthenes. I'll take a look there now.

So far i can find no argument against transhumanism. As a consequence of by belief that the purpose of life (or at least my life) is to learn, i think that to adopt the position that we've reached an evolutionary limit is to sound the death-knell for greater understanding and accomplishment.

Some mystics (e.g. Gurdjieff) have argued that we're not done yet, but they thought that there were ways outside of technology to achieve any advances. I don't see how we can neglect the help that science may give us, though.

Have you read Greg Bear's "Eon"? It addresses some of the ideas behind transhumanism.

I'm following the philosophy of mathematics thread with you but i can't understand why no-one will address my posts. I'm pretty sure my argument for why something exists instead of nothing was sound, but it's been passed over. Is it because i'm new here?

Demosthenes

It's my Bible! Nah just kidding, it's one of my favorite novels, the same thing for the sequel, "Eternity", but unfortunately, my Eternity copy has vanished. How about Greg Egan's novels, "Diaspora" and "Permutation City", which deals extensively with communitites of uploaded people. Even Arthur Clarke's books, such as "The City and the Stars" has some transhumanism themes.


I can't say for sure that I saw your posts about your argument of existence. I've been skimming over some parts, I'll go back and look for yours.

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: Demosthenes ]

telemachus

I've read both "Eon" and "Eternity" several times. I was stunned, to say the least. I haven't heard of the others you mention but i'll be sure to take a look.

telemachus

Demosthenes:

"Is that a scroll in your toga, or are you just happy to see me?" Would that be right?

Personally i think that si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

What do you think of the plausibility of any of the technologies mentioned in Bear's books? Would you be willing to try them, if they were available now?

I notice that libertarians have taken quite a beating in the politics section. Why do you suppose there is so much hostility here toward your position? I ask because i would have expected free-thinking people to be less likely to believe in economic fallacies, but this does not appear to be the case.

thinker

telemachus - the probable reason your posts in the philosophy of mathematics have been ignored is that you have a point and the hard atheists around here don't want to acknowledge that point. I have chosen to step down as moderator here because of a fundamental difference in beliefs that I have with a small minority of the inner circle here.

As for where that thread is leading - if you don't know yet then I can't explain it any better.

Demosthenes

telemachus,


"If you can read this, you’re overeducated"


Actually, my Latin is barely even minuscule, I needed help translating that phrase. I'm studying Italian so I recognize some of the root words. I found the signature phrase while browsing Latin directories on the net. I was wondering when somebody would figure it out.

As for Greg Bear, I find very plausible many of his postulated technologies. Especially with the proflication of different body shapes, ranging from homomorphs to neomorphs, you hear of people changing their appearances with plastic surgery, and recently I heard about a guy who's changing his appearance to resemble one of the big cats. When trivially easy extensive body modification becomes possible, I guarantee thousands of people will flock to take advatage of it. I myself wouldn't mind making few modications, though transforming myself into a levitating sphere with arms seem a bit extreme to me.

Implants that supplement your reasoning and memory are almost an inevitability given the current progress of the technology. Those that actually store your consciousness in the event of your accidental death are speculative right now. But today there's serious research on whether such technology would become possible. However the technical diffculties are immense but hopefully not insurmountable. Not to mention the philosophical and psychological questions about the mind-body and identity problems. It's the kind of thing that transhumanists love to think about.

If such thing does become possible, I would jump for it.


I think one of the problem about libertarianism is that it covers such a broad area that some serious definition is required. At one extreme you have pure anarchists claiming to be libertarains. There are many subcategories that belong to libertarianism.

The other problem is that many of the reformations advocated by libertarians seem to be quite idealistic. The political stage is full of messy complicated shifting alliances and compromises between the two dominate parties, namely the Democrates and the Republicans. The reforms brought forward by the libertarians are radical in the view of many people, we're not about making small changes, we're all about cutting through the wide expanse of the bloated government and making the necessary fixes. People fear that it may lead to a big loss of profits and stability. We disagree, in fact in our perspective, it's the other way.

I have to go, but I'll get back on it for more.

telemachus

Demosthenes:

I like a challenge, and that's what it looked like to me. My latin isn't up to much either, but i'm interested in etymology and it comes up often.

The problem with transhumanism that i am worried about is that more time doesn't necessarily mean better results. That is: if we had access to all of the possible technology now, would people use it to further themselves? I wonder if the proportion searching for answers would change? What do you think?

I like the idea that Bear used of "storing" Olmy's son inside the computer while he "grew up" and was educated. This would prevent anti-social individuals from using their augmented abilities to wreck society on a larger scale. However, it raises alot more questions than it answers: who would decide which individuals could be "born" and which would have to either stay inside the computer or be erased? I'd have to agree with one of the links i read (i forget which) that these questions need to be answered now, before the technology is completely available.

Having said this, i'd jump for it too. Do you think i could get a quantum mechanics chip?

I agree with your comments on libertarianism. I call myself a classical liberal because i don't accept "rights"- based arguments and can find no tenable economic or other refutation of the classical liberal program, especially since it was updated by subjective economic theory. I plan to get involved in the politics section when i have more time; seeing the same old mercantilist and other fallacies being repeated hundreds of years after they were first made a mockery of begins to get to me eventually...

thinker: You're probably right. If you're willing to explain, i'd like to know more about the fundamental difference you describe if it's anything more than what i can understand from your posts and the reaction to them. You can e-mail me if you like.

thinker

I can;t access your email address. Mine is gsd@cae.co.uk