Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fatherphil · 07-11-2003, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
do everyone a favor and avoid Christians at all cost.

That's from the Bible, isn't it? Sermon on the Mount, right?

i think it might be in the ot

Keith · 07-11-2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

Keith's reply:

Yes, it is morally wrong.

Then why was this an OT law? Where's god's "objective moral standard" gotten off to?

We have all been given God's law to which our conscience testifies.

Now fill me in on how one can derive an objective moral standard from that? Do you naively think everyone's conscience "testifies" to the same moral laws? And if so, I'd like to see you list these "objective" moral laws all of our consciences are testifying to.

The fact that God places special legal/moral demands on a certain person or a certain group (such as the Israelites) doesn't make his moral law any less real, or any less binding on its subjects.

I don't need to list all of God's moral laws. God has already made his law plain to you, and to everyone. When you sin, you know you are sinning. In Romans chapter two, Paul says..."the requirements of the law are written on their hearts."

Keith · 07-11-2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

"The fallacy you're making is in not recognizing that something one claims as a basis for an "objective" moral standard that has the attribute of being so vague as to be interpreted in countless diverse ways, with no one knowing the supposed correct interpretation except through their subjective opinion (resulting in countless "correct" interpretations), can hardly be put forth as truly being "objective".

This, of course, is your own opinion.

Mageth · 07-11-2003, 12:34 PM

The fact that God places special legal/moral demands on a certain person or a certain group (such as the Israelites) doesn't make his moral law any less real, or any less binding on its subjects.

So much for God's objective morals, which if I recall is what you were claiming.

If it's morally wrong to kill a child for cursing his or her parents (and I assume you think this is one of God's objective morals), why would God place a "special legal/moral demand" on a people to do just that?

I don't need to list all of God's moral laws. God has already made his law plain to you, and to everyone.

Nope, not to me. And there you go again - I lack belief in God, remember? God can't even make himself plain to me, and to many others. Therefore, of course I don't believe god has made anything known to me.

And you keep bringing up this character "God" without providing any evidence that it actually exists. It'll remain fictional until you can establish otherwise.

When you sin, you know you are sinning.

I don't "sin". The word has no meaning to me.

In Romans chapter two, Paul says..."the requirements of the law are written on their hearts."

And me being an atheist, the bible is, what, supposed to mean something to me or add credence to your argument?

BTW, I've seen human hearts, and there's nothing written on them (with the exception of artificial hearts).

...

Once again, since you claim god's moral law is real, objective, and even "written on our hearts", it seems like you should be able to at least make an attempt at listing that objective moral law that we're all supposed to know. So far you're just repeating "it exists" without providing any evidence - Argumentum ad Nauseum.

Mageth · 07-11-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
This, of course, is your own opinion.

That sword, of course, cuts both ways. But I have no problem with it, as subjectivity causes no problems in my world view.

Keith · 07-11-2003, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

"As someone else mentioned, god has not been proven, and in addition it's not been proven (or even reasonably argued) that [a] god is necessary for attributes such as compassion and forgiveness to exist. ("A god" because, in addition to proving a god exists, one would also have to prove that your definition of God exists. Lotsa luck).

God (the ONE and only God) has provided all of us with all the proof that is required so that we will know him. It is nonsense for atheists to pretend that the world around them shows no sign of God's existence.

Mageth · 07-11-2003, 01:47 PM

God (the ONE and only God) has provided all of us with all the proof that is required so that we will know him.

OK, then, produce this "proof." (I could say, I reckon, that "this, of course, is your own opinion.") And after that (if you can), show how this "proof" points clearly and directly at your perception of "God (the ONE and only God)" and not some other god.

It is nonsense for atheists to pretend that the world around them shows no sign of God's existence.

Yes, that would be nonsense, and that's why I don't pretend. The world around truly does not show me any signs of God's existence, and in particular the "God (the ONE and only God)" I'm assuming you perceive. I ain't pretending.

(BTW, it might help if you'd provide further definition of the "God (the ONE and only God)" you believe in.)

Keith · 07-11-2003, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

"You have yet to demonstrate to me that there is anything like an objective basis for morality which you've claimed. So far, your entire argument seems to be one big Argumentum ad Nauseum."

Even if I were unable to demonstrate to your satisfaction that there is an objective basis for morality, it wouldn't necessarily follow that such a thing doesn't exist, or that it is as elusive (or nonexistant) as you claim it is.

Keith · 07-11-2003, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
God is then, by definition, amoral."

What?

Keith · 07-11-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin

"It should mean that based on our collective laws they should be brought before a human court, and given punishment on earth, and be kept from repeating their offences."

They should be punished for doing what? You are assuming that just because most people on the planet have reached a concensus that terrorism is morally wrong, this means that terrorists should be punished.

What if most of the world's population believed in a god? Would that mean that atheists should be punished for being wrong?

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07-11-2003, 12:34 PM	#104
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	The fact that God places special legal/moral demands on a certain person or a certain group (such as the Israelites) doesn't make his moral law any less real, or any less binding on its subjects. So much for God's objective morals, which if I recall is what you were claiming. If it's morally wrong to kill a child for cursing his or her parents (and I assume you think this is one of God's objective morals), why would God place a "special legal/moral demand" on a people to do just that? I don't need to list all of God's moral laws. God has already made his law plain to you, and to everyone. Nope, not to me. And there you go again - I lack belief in God, remember? God can't even make himself plain to me, and to many others. Therefore, of course I don't believe god has made anything known to me. And you keep bringing up this character "God" without providing any evidence that it actually exists. It'll remain fictional until you can establish otherwise. When you sin, you know you are sinning. I don't "sin". The word has no meaning to me. In Romans chapter two, Paul says..."the requirements of the law are written on their hearts." And me being an atheist, the bible is, what, supposed to mean something to me or add credence to your argument? BTW, I've seen human hearts, and there's nothing written on them (with the exception of artificial hearts). ... Once again, since you claim god's moral law is real, objective, and even "written on our hearts", it seems like you should be able to at least make an attempt at listing that objective moral law that we're all supposed to know. So far you're just repeating "it exists" without providing any evidence - Argumentum ad Nauseum.

07-11-2003, 01:47 PM	#107
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	God (the ONE and only God) has provided all of us with all the proof that is required so that we will know him. OK, then, produce this "proof." (I could say, I reckon, that "this, of course, is your own opinion.") And after that (if you can), show how this "proof" points clearly and directly at your perception of "God (the ONE and only God)" and not some other god. It is nonsense for atheists to pretend that the world around them shows no sign of God's existence. Yes, that would be nonsense, and that's why I don't pretend. The world around truly does not show me any signs of God's existence, and in particular the "God (the ONE and only God)" I'm assuming you perceive. I ain't pretending. (BTW, it might help if you'd provide further definition of the "God (the ONE and only God)" you believe in.)

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