RJS

I'm still around, just not aware of any discussion on the table.

So we will have 310 posts at a minimum.

Let me ask you a question (and it is an honest question). What do you believe the origin of us was (is)? And how is it supported by scientific fact? If you don't have facts, are you then saying you have to have faith in something scientifically unproven? or do you just not know?

Thanks.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

MrDarwin

By "us" do you mean the origin of humans, life, or the material world? Three very different questions, three different answers.

Origin of humans: that one is easy. There is ample evidence that we evolved from a species of ape. (In fact, it's safe to say that we are apes. But if you want to discuss the evidence, you'll have to go over to the evolution/creation forum.)

Origin of life: a much stickier question, and to this one I simply have to say "I don't know." However, I do know that the stories told in Genesis are not consistent with what we actually know about the history of life on this planet, so I will continue to look elsewhere for the answer.

Origin of the universe: to me, this is the one true mystery. I am certain that humans had an entirely natural origin (i.e., without any kind of supernatural influence); I'm reasonably certain that life originated naturally as well, even if we don't yet entirely understand how. Although I cannot rule out a supernatural origin of life, I simply can't test it, so for the purposes of science I think the hypothesis that life had a natural origin is more likely to produce fruitful results.

But the origin of the universe, of space and matter and time, the origin of existence itself, that is a very profound question that I can't even attempt to answer. It's a question that makes my head hurt when I think about it too much, and this is the one thing that keeps me an honest agnostic (although with respect to the Christian concept of God, you've probably already figured out that I'm as hard an atheist as they come).

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

RJS

McDarwin - very helpful response. I think I was thinking more along the life/universe questioning - which you answered. I am very inquisitive what others think too - as you sound more honestly agnostic.

Could you elaborate on this comment you made

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

MrDarwin

That's an entirely different discussion and belongs in a different forum, so I've started a new discussion <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=000799" target="_blank">here.</a> Feel free to come over and participate.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

ex-preacher

I would basically concur with MrDarwin's three-fold response. Just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean we should attribute it to a supernatural power. Historically, there have been many phenomena attributed to god(s) - such as lightning, the Plague, volcanoes, earthquakes, rain, all diseases - which have turned out to have natural explanations. While we can't absolutely rule out the supernatural, it seems highly unlikely.

Based on the suffering that exists and the lack of communication from a god, I think that if there is a supernatural power, it is impersonal, weak or evil. The powerful, personal, good god described in the Bible is inconsistent with reality.

Quote from Clarence Darrow: "How can anyone say there is a God simply because he cannot imagine a universe creating itself? How do we know that the universe could not create itself as well as God could make himself or herself, or itself? How does anyone know the universe could not exist without a cause? . . . Where did God come from? . . . Is it any more logical for you to tell me that the universe must have had a maker than for me to reply, by the same logic, God must have had a maker?"

Jack the Bodiless

I would like to add:

3) The Bible?

I have yet to see a good explanation of how the notion of the omnimax God can be derived from the Biblical account. "With God, all things are possible" seems rather flimsy.

And, of course, there are many clearer passages which specifically contradict the concept.

St. Robert

Suffering during life is inherited from man's rebellion and disobedience against God.

Punishment after death occurs when man refuses God's forgiveness for the continued rebellion and disobedience of man.

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

Thor Q. Mada

St. Robert,

No offence meant, but I think you are a serious fruitcake, and probably like all fanatics , dangerous as well. You are not going to fly a plane in a building are you???

hinduwoman

To get back to the roginal subject of heatwave, conditions are terrible in India. apparently electricity supply cannot take the load and several cities report breakdowns.
Tempers are very frayed. At any moment violence, leading to riots can ocuur. And we would have God to thank for sending this heatwave.

free12thinker

So does this mean that Christians do not suffer? Or do Christians suffer from the rest of mans rebellion and disobediance from god. If this is true, it's certainly not fair. And if you answer that Christian's sin too, because no one is perfect, I will ask you this. Why can't anyone live their life to the letter of God, without fouling up. And if you are going to state that God did not make perfect men than I will counter with, "Is it really fair for god to intentionally make imperfect men, only to punish them for such imperfections?"

And if this is the case, than why should these men see eye to eye with god (respect him), after he has lead them to punishment, for simply a) trying their damnest to follow him and his words but being unable to because of the limitations he puts on them or b) living a good life in every way, except he/she is an atheist, thus their one flaw (by god's standards) is a lack of belief, even if the rest of their morals and ways fit in with god's.

If you answer this question with, people need to be thankful, mindful and respectful to god and all of his glory, for he created them, and blah blah blah, I will question your strength and intelligence, as only would be natural for someone like me, and every other free thinking humane atheist in this world.

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>