Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 03-07-2003, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh
Vork has already addressed most of the blatantly ignorant statements you made, so I will just highlight this one.

I presume here that you are talking about Israel Finkelstein, author of "The Bible Unearthed". Would you care to substantiate, with evidence, the smear you just made on him, and show us how pro-palestenian and anti-Jewish Israel Finkelstein is?

I will take silence on your part to be an admission that you cannot.

Bumping to note that in 2 days, Old Man has not been able to respond to this challenge, proving that his he has no evidence to back up his ad hominem attack on Finkelstein.

As expected.

Butters · 03-07-2003, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Apparently you've misssed something. I was answering the first question UNDER THE ASSUMPTION that the Bible is still God's word with errors.That is the framework I addressed the question from. I was not seeking to defend the Bible as God's words, just explaining how to use it as such. Please, go and read the initial post of this thread again.

Vinnie, maybe I am confused.

Quote:

I addressed this in my article. My hemeneutical framework prioritizes the Cross. I look at everything through that lense. Mix in the Holy Spirit, reason, the pattern set by Jesus, common sense, prayer, humility and you have a good starting ground. Others would add in the words of Jesus in so far as they can be reconstructed. I accept this to a degree but I do not believe Jesus was omniscient ( I accept a kenotic view).

The above led me to believe that you ARE defending the Bible as the word of God, with errors. You seem to be saying that you DO assume that anything that prioritizes the cross as true, accept that passages regarding the holy spirit are true, and that the stories of Jesus and his behaviour are true.
It seems to me that the crux of the question is, if you realize that there are errors in the Bible, how can you detirmine what is true or not. Obviously, you cannot use the Bible for this, as it is the Bible itself that is suspected of error. Is the story of the cross true or not? Are the stories of a Holy spirit true, or not? Are the stories related about Jesus true or not? How do you know?

Butters · 03-07-2003, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Apparently you've misssed something. I was answering the first question UNDER THE ASSUMPTION that the Bible is still God's word with errors.That is the framework I addressed the question from. I was not seeking to defend the Bible as God's words, just explaining how to use it as such. Please, go and read the initial post of this thread again.

Vinnie, maybe I am confused.

Quote:

I addressed this in my article. My hemeneutical framework prioritizes the Cross. I look at everything through that lense. Mix in the Holy Spirit, reason, the pattern set by Jesus, common sense, prayer, humility and you have a good starting ground. Others would add in the words of Jesus in so far as they can be reconstructed. I accept this to a degree but I do not believe Jesus was omniscient ( I accept a kenotic view).

The above led me to believe that you ARE defending the Bible as the word of God, with errors. You seem to be saying that you DO assume that anything that prioritizes the cross as true, accept that passages regarding the holy spirit are true, and that the stories of Jesus and his behaviour are true.
It seems to me that the crux of the question is, if you realize that there are errors in the Bible, how can you detirmine what is true or not. Obviously, you cannot use the Bible for this, as it is the Bible itself that is suspected of error. Is the story of the cross true or not? Are the stories of a Holy spirit true, or not? Are the stories related about Jesus true or not? How do you know?

Vinnie · 03-07-2003, 08:06 AM

[QUOTE]
The above led me to believe that you ARE defending the Bible as the word of God, with errors. You seem to be saying that you DO assume that anything that prioritizes the cross as true, accept that passages regarding the holy spirit are true, and that the stories of Jesus and his behaviour are true. [QUOTE]

I didn't say that. I said that we can think God wanted a salvific message based upon the Cross in the Bible since that is what the whole NT focuses on. I don't take any isolated story at face value--whether on salvation, the holy spirit or anything else. I just said that we could take the forest of the NT as accurate. Jesus' death somehow has the effect of reconciling people to God. Trust me, I don't view the Bible as a "rule book". The historicity of most events in there is irrelvant and the three most important things to me are : The pattern for behavior set by Jesus that we are to imitate, the salvific message of Jesus and the Cross and the Bible's functional role as God's word. That is it.

To me it more an issue of what you get out of reading it than asking if rules x y z are universal laws of the created order and if a b and c really literally happened.

Asha'man · 03-07-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
I said that we can think God wanted a salvific message based upon the Cross in the Bible since that is what the whole NT focuses on. I don't take any isolated story at face value--whether on salvation, the holy spirit or anything else. I just said that we could take the forest of the NT as accurate.[/B]

So, anything that is repeated often enough must be true?

Vinnie · 03-07-2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Asha'man
So, anything that is repeated often enough must be true?

Something like that.

Kosh · 03-07-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
Something like that.

<snicker><chomp><chomp>
Argumentum ad Nauseam

Vinnie · 03-07-2003, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Argument ad no comprehendo.

Vinnie

Answerer · 03-07-2003, 09:19 PM

So dear christians, who think that the bible is quite flawed, I'm curious to who might you think to be the true murderer of the chosen one (or Jesus)? I got some alternatives from some sources that state the true murderer might be the Roman, themselves, not Jews.

Vinnie · 03-07-2003, 09:39 PM

I don't take the Bible portraits at face value, that is for sure.

Read Brown's 2 Volume work the Death of the Messiah for a comprehensive treatment of the PNs. I'm slowly going through it.

Vinnie

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03-07-2003, 08:06 AM	#14
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	[QUOTE] The above led me to believe that you ARE defending the Bible as the word of God, with errors. You seem to be saying that you DO assume that anything that prioritizes the cross as true, accept that passages regarding the holy spirit are true, and that the stories of Jesus and his behaviour are true. [QUOTE] I didn't say that. I said that we can think God wanted a salvific message based upon the Cross in the Bible since that is what the whole NT focuses on. I don't take any isolated story at face value--whether on salvation, the holy spirit or anything else. I just said that we could take the forest of the NT as accurate. Jesus' death somehow has the effect of reconciling people to God. Trust me, I don't view the Bible as a "rule book". The historicity of most events in there is irrelvant and the three most important things to me are : The pattern for behavior set by Jesus that we are to imitate, the salvific message of Jesus and the Cross and the Bible's functional role as God's word. That is it. To me it more an issue of what you get out of reading it than asking if rules x y z are universal laws of the created order and if a b and c really literally happened.

03-07-2003, 09:19 PM	#19
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	So dear christians, who think that the bible is quite flawed, I'm curious to who might you think to be the true murderer of the chosen one (or Jesus)? I got some alternatives from some sources that state the true murderer might be the Roman, themselves, not Jews.

03-07-2003, 09:39 PM	#20
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	I don't take the Bible portraits at face value, that is for sure. Read Brown's 2 Volume work the Death of the Messiah for a comprehensive treatment of the PNs. I'm slowly going through it. Vinnie

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