orac

Finally, you're going to tell us how to distinguish the True Christians from the False Christians. We keep asking you to do this, and you never do. Perhaps this time?

If nothing else, why on earth should I pay the slightest attention to you, when you freely admit that self-professed christians are not to be trusted? Tell me why anyone should trust you, or should we assume you're not worth listening to?

Btw, many threads on the problem of evil include references to how God uses suffering to build character, teach forgivness, and show what evil is like so we can appreciate good things. This always ends up with a "how would you know what happiness is if you hadn't known sadness" post.

Unfortunately, you're now telling me that this board is full of False Christians preaching about a God they don't understand.

I really wish you'ld tell us how to know the true christians, so we'll know who to listen to. But if you won't do that, I guess you want the false christians to lead us to hell. It's so thoughtful of you to withhold your wisdom and knowledge from us.

I want to print this out, frame it, and hang it on a wall.

Then every time a christian uses the free will defense against the problem of evil, I'll look at it and know that there's at least one True Christian who knows they're wrong.

Thank you for that. I actually appreciate you taking the time to say that we can have free will without the requirement of evil.

True, you're one of the True Christians who use the free will defense, but I'ld like to be reminded that you don't actually believe it works even though you use it.

It means, among other things, reading the Bible, or so you say.

You appear to have missed the book of revelations - I suggest you go read it now, then we can talk about what's in it.

Good christians will be celebrating, and everyone else will be going to hell. I'll give you 1 guess what they'll be celebrating, but I suspect you won't get it.


The problem is that a parent can accept the need for their child to go to prison for a crime, yet suffer because their child committed the crime that required punishment.

Don't you understand that?

You're trying to say parents will not care that their children offended God. You're not saying that they'll understand the offense, you're saying they won't care that their child did the crime.

Whether the suffering is because of the child's punishment or because the parents understand that their child was so absolutely totally and unforgivably evil that even Hitler looks like a good person (he believed in and worshipped God, after all - at least he wasn't an atheist) the parents will still have something to be unhappy about.

Your god is unjust.

He created people with limied restricted and imperfect knowledge, and yet expects perfection.

Your god made the rules. If your god is real, then he has the power to enforce the rules.

I understand you completely. I just have nothing but contempt for the concept of infinite punishment for finite sin - especially where the sin is caused by an accident of birth, rather than intent.

It's interesting to note that your perfect just god is lacking in mercy, though. If a child hits me, I forgive. if an adult hits me, I'm more likely to press charges, and even that depends on the circumstances. Your god created weak and limited people - you say we're less than children compared to him - yet he shows no mercy to anyone who doesn't think the Bible (complete with advocating rape, torture slavery and genocide) is a moral book.

Infidelettante

quote:Magus55
God will give us the desires of the heart. ( non-sinful things we've always dreamed of).

20 years ago I gave up drugs. 10 years ago I gave up drinking. I've all but given up sex at my age. I seem to be in heaven.

It's as dull as not taking drugs not drinking and not f**king. I don't recommend it.

JT

Paperstreet

:notworthy

Taffer

Doesn't make sense.

God created everything. Ignoring the minefield question of where God came from, this would mean that whenever you do anything, you do it to one of his creations; You are indirectly doing something to God. Wouldn't a mother care about how her children are treated? Wouldn't an artist make sure his work is kept in pristine condition? And wouldn't either of these be hurt or wounded if their protegé were to be harmed?

With me so far?

You say that since God is infinitely Good, any sin you commit against him is of infinite and unpardonable evil. This works both ways (One could say God is infinitely strong and good-humoured and therefore impossible to injure or insult), but let's assume your version is true.
Let's say I walk outside right now and spit onto the pavement. I have knowingly defiled a spot of asphalt and some of the dirt on it. Imagine! Dirt made of atoms God carefully pieced together, asphalt God granted humanity by making minds that could conceive of it. I have commited a tiny, miniscule blasphemy against God, but since God is infinitely divine, the sin is unpardonable and I'm going to Hell for spitting on the pavement.

By that logic, any atheist, wiccan, hindu or even good christian who kicks a dog, swats a fly, pollutes the environment by driving around in his car or even taps the wall a little forcefully is going to burn for eternity in (da da da DUM) HELL!


PS: If you respond with the circular "God is just, and therefore all he does is just", I will beat you with a stick. A stick with a nail in it.

wade-w

Many christian theologians have said that part of the entertainment in heaven will be getting to watch the torture of the damned in hell. That seems to contradict your position.

Treacle Worshipper

Originally posted by Magus55
Yes i do, and iv'e explained it before but no one here cares, or understands it. Sin is so severe because of who it offends. God is an infinite, perfect, Holy being. Sin against him is deserving of eternal punishment. It has nothing to do with might is right, it has to do with perfect justice and righteousness - something that has never existed on Earth. Sin = an infinite crime - therefore the punishment is infinite.

Magus, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand this.

Why (& how) does a crime against an infinite being become infinite?

Any action (thought, word or deed) taken by a human is finite, because we exist in time. How does finite action translate into infinite crime?


(Secondly, if the crime is infinite, then it must be continuing even while the criminal is being punished for it. I'm kinda thinking out loud here, but something about that just doesn't seem right. Anyway, that's by the by.)


If you beat up a homless guy, you aren't gonna get the same punishment as if you beat up the President of the U.S.
You might not, but you certainly should. (Sorry, but I'm no respecter of persons. We are all supposedly equal before the law.) (It's ok Magus, I know this was just an illustration, and that it does happen; I don't assume you think it's right.)
TW

lpetrich

In effect, the Xtian God has a very thin skin.

And being thin-skinned is generally not considered very dignified.

DoubleDutchy

Matthew 25
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, `Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me.'

Stephen T-B

Earlier on, Magus55 wrote: “Nope, because there is no sadness, grief or tears in Heaven.”

Odd.

Another Christian wrote in another thread dealing with this topic that there are tears in heaven.
So which is it?

Magus55 is stuck with his Heaven and his Hell and his God, but he being stuck with them doesn’t mean I have to be - for which I am sincerely grateful. (He? His? Him? being stuck - one of em's right.)

Ideas of what constitutes Heaven vary as widely among Christians, I have no doubt, as to what constitutes a Christian.
Thing is, when the idea of it was first expressed, most people could imagine Heaven with the greatest of ease. Their present, Earthly existence was embedded in uncertainties and dangers and hardships; regularly and frequently they suffered the dire consequences of hunger, disease and war. Heaven was a place free of all these things: they would never be hungry, never sick, never thirsty, never overworked, never bereaved, never wretched, never fearful. And what else would you expect in Heaven but streets of gold and buildings adorned with precious stones?

They weren’t bothered about tricky questions of Free Will and boredom and what “eternity” actually is.
Modern-day Christians have the problem of explaining a simple, very ancient idea so it makes any sort of sense in the modern world. And their explanations, as we see from the posts by Magus55, amount to nonsensical speculation.

Magus55

It becomes infinite because you can never do anything to pay back the offense. For example. Why do we put different amounts of time on prison sentences or criminal offenses? There is life in prison, 30 years, 20 years, 10 years, a month etc. Those are the times that the government has deemed necessary for the offender to have to endure, in order to pay back the debt to society for his crimes. After the person is released ( except in the case of life), they go free because they have paid their debt to society and faced the consequences for their actions. When you commit a crime (sin) against God, there is no amount of time you can put in that can ever pay that debt back to God. No one can do anything on their own good enough for God. He is perfect, and anything that isn't perfect goes against His nature. Therefore, you are infinitely in debt for your sins, because its impossible, no matter what you physically do to ever reconcile your actions against God.

The only way for any of us to be able to pay our debts back to God, is to allow God to carry those debts with Jesus on the Cross. Since Jesus was perfect, He is able to meet God's standards and reconcile sin with Him. Thats what Jesus did on the Cross. He paid the debt for our sins, because we never can no matter what we do. You just have to be willing to accept Jesus' gift of wiping your criminal record away and bearing the crimes you committed for you. If you reject what He did for you, then you are still held criminally responsible for sinning against God - and since you, yourself can never repay that debt back to God - its an infinite offense.

While, on Earth - criminal offense only affect the persons physical life, God is spiritual, and offenses against Him are crimes of the soul. The soul is eternal, therefore, without ever being able to repay the debt - the soul is in "prison" for eternity.

I don't know if that made any more sense or not, but I tried. I'm sure you don't agree with it but thats the best explanation i can offer.