Amos

Hello Sabine, the point here is that critical thinking is not desired and the gospel message must be pondered or the passage numbers would be given when the gospel is proclaimed. You must understand that Catholics are sinners and the Church is for sinners. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is demonstrated each Sunday when the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table (the scripture readings) become like ointment for the sores of the believer who returns for nourishment time and time again until even such heights that their spoils become sacret messages realized only when God finally opens their eyes to the truth behind the gospel message. Until then, curious eyes are not for bible reading and critical thinking should never be part of religion.

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I fail to see how it is negative for any christian to access a personal study of biblical writings. It certainly keeps religious leaders on their toes when confronted with NT teachings which denounce their greed for example.....

Catholics are not [so called] christians and therefore do not have the urge to study the bible. If and when they become Christians in the manner of Jesus they will be able to write their own gospel (Jn.5:39-40) and will read to compare their life with the gospel of others.

I would say that there is no greed because they only eat three meals per day. It seems to me that greed is only perceived in the eyes of the have-nots because to the good steward assets are like liabillities ("my poor money").

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Are you implying that catholics who study the Bible individualy or as groups or claim to be born again are not saved by faith? if it is so where do you base that belief other than catholic doctrine?

We are never to judge but if many are called and few are chosen, many will not complete the race. This would mean that many are called into the race and I am sure that some of these are Catholics. If, according to me, protestants can never complete the race it would be those Catholics that act like protestants who will not finish the race (unless they turn around and go the other way, I guess).

In Rev. 13 we see that the first beast came out of the sea and acts like a beast for only 42 months. This would be the time it takes to complete this race (we call this purgatory).

The second beast came from the [old] earth (carnal desire) and will spend the rest of its days acting like a beast while worshipping the first beast who's mortal wounds had been healed (stigmata). These are like the Jesus worshippers of every age who are torn between its own two heads of 'sinful yet saved.' Opposite this the first beast that had victory over sin and shows the 10 diamond studded horns to indicate this (no sin is allowed inheaven).

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Also to point that the authenticity of the persona of whom Christ or Jesus really was does not diminish the fact that there is a clear message on how we are as believers in God to use our material wealth. Clearly to clothe the poor... give water and food... visit the ones who are emprisonned...... the sick etc.... do you need the Nt reference to that passage or the act of examining those facts for yourself are a " nono"... it is censored? The words are clear as to the fact that those actions and deeds on others are equal to God benefiting of them....but nothing there where the religious leaders are the benefactors. The needy people are to be the benefactors and it appears that it is what is pleasing to God. One can contest the existence of Jesus under any title possible but the MESSAGE remains. And it has great validity to a theist who claims to be a christian.

To the above I can only say that if we give in the name of a Christian we have already received our reward. This echoes the words of Jesus that "if we receive a prophet in the name of a prophet we have already received our reward." I personally would never write my name on a gift because it is wrong to let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. St. Francis of Assissi made this clear when he gave without guilt to cover for his own identity (pun intended). The message here is that a Christian should never give out of guilt and the upshot of this is that it is not wrong to be rich as long as we do not feel guilty about it--or the poor could not always be with the rich.

Amos

Hello Shake, yes they encoultered the Metis in Canada which is just opposite to the "Indian reserve apartheid" promoted by the protestants. See also South Africa with a similar development.

We have Voodoo mixed with Catholicism, Zen Catholicism and many more that I am not very familiar with but I am sure that Hinduwoman can add some insights here . Catholic beliefs may vary but their mythology is completely grounded in thruth and can therefore take all others under its wings.

Powerball? We are into souls and don't have to gamble with them.

Sorry if I piss you off but you could just write a decent rebuttal and we'll take it from there.

Sabine Grant

Good day Amos! Thank you for all your responses. We obviously disagree on quite a few themes but I enjoy very much how we are both communicating.

Here is my greatest concern Amos in keeping believers from accessing critical thinking.... that we miss out on how we are to conduct ourselves. If we allow others to digest a message for us and tell us the how when and where, we become vulnerable to exploitation of our minds and hearts too.

That is how destructive cult leaders have led folks to the worst harmful actions. Against others and themselves. That is how some religiouse leaders exploit the generosity of their folks to purchase a 2 million dollar home and claim that God is blessing them! Again only an attentive reader of the Gospels can question the use of that wealth by comparing the lifestyle of the man called Jesus ( who did carry the leading title of "rabbi" or teacher). The comparaison is necessary to evaluate the motives of some religious leaders. An atheist will have no problems confronting also those types of actions simply because it defies principles of humanism where mankind is to benefit not the "elite".

Religion has a very bad name Amos and mostly because, us , the religious people have allowed and still try to justify the exploitation of the masses by our so called leaders. I cannot justify or support it. No doctrine can convince me that it is at all reconciliable with the teachings of Christ as presented in the Gospels. I can come to that conclusion because I can exercise my own critical thinking as I study the text. But I fear for the masses who entrust church doctrine to lead their thoughts and even worse, church dogma to conduct themselves.

Faith needs not the oppression of organized religion. It needs to thrive thru constant personal experiences with God and the desire to be a better version of ourselves. As we pertain to grow and not be enslaved by doctrine or dogma, we become more accessible to other human beings and so much more accepting of differences. We live by faith then rather than by following legalistic concepts. Jesus brought up the importance of questioning legalistic lifestyles as he challenged the Sabbath by asking if we were to let our best sheep drown because it is the Sabbath....that message where critical thinking is required cannot be attained if the message is kept hidden by the leaders who could not care less if the sheep drowns. His use of metaphores was there to stimulate thinking and reflection.

Why would those young catholics whip themselves all the way up to that village in Sicily if they had reflected on the fact that self inflicted penitence is not a necessity? would they come to the same behavior if they understood that the martyrdom of their own flesh is not a requirement to be washed of sins? can you see the difference between the character of the God I believe in and their God who requires self destructive acts to acquire repentance?

Are we to not reflect on the character of God to understand salvation? I could understand salvation thru the catholic or reformed way thru all the doctrines presented in various churches..but my choice is to understand it thru what I consider to be the character of God. Not the Ot God manipulated by the schemes of many men. Not the dogma God. But a God who triggers my conscience and allows me to admit to Him directly what it is I am doing wrong... then a God who gives me the means to rectify that wrong, to modify my behavior so I can give it a better try. If I harbor resentment against someone and drag the pain along, I can come to Him directly and forgive that someone. If I become too greedy about what I own, I can come to Him and learn how to live without what I consider so precious and necessary. And so many other themes presented by Christ in his teachings on human behaviors and how to relate them to God.

Folks would not be looking for signs and miracles if they only found daily miracles in creation itself. Victor Hugo, the French novelist and poet who was a catholic ,found great relief and closeness to God after the death of his daughter as he sought God's presence thru nature ( pantheism). Time is wasted fighting over whether or not a limb grew or a tumor disappeared . When mankind and the planet which shelters our lives have somehow survived in a universe where anything can happen at any time.

I believe that God is reflected by any act of goodness done by any human being. That ability to promote goodness onto others is God. That is his essence and presence. Church doctrines restrict that ability to those who abide to their doctrine and dogma. The rest of mankind is then percieved as " unchosen" or " lost" or " bad" or " evil" etc....there is nothing ever good that the rest of mankind can do. Goodness is then nullified if coming from one who does not abide to the particular dogma or doctrine. And every doctrine is in competition to prove who detains the path to salvation.

There is only the need to experience God thru the drive to love others rather than despise or reject them for their differences. And it is to be experienced now not thru eternity.

Amos

Likewise Sabine and I would never single you out as deceived but rather think that you are true to your own heart but don't quite have the theology straight to back that up and that is what I am responding to.

I wish to point out that cults are always protestant and anti-Catholic in origen. From my ealier posts you may recall that they are on fire for the Lord because their God consciousness has been awakened before its own time (Songs 2:7) and are now torn between heaven and hell as a direct result of that. They indeed are the second beast of Revelation and will always be reformers. Luther was, Hitler was, Jones was, and so are all the others who do not come to recognize that the Catholic Church is the "bride of the lamb" and Rome is the city upon high forever gleaming with the splendor of God. The Church is crammed with heaven and if you suggest that we should take this apart I would caution you that all you would have left is a bunch of bricks of no value. The true beauty of the church is not in its volume but in its quality, and this is a gift from the living God.

The problem with these reformers is that they seek to convert the world around them while in fact they must convert their own sin nature whence they came. Gal.2:17 is good to explain this because "in seeking to be justified [they] were convicted to be sinners." See the problem? and do you also see how the Catholic Church cannot be one of them because She is the bride of Christ from where marauders steal bits and pieces each of whom they think they can get away with? (Little do they realize that it will set their ass on fire on the way out but you can never tell them that because their ass is on fire for the Lord.)

If religion has a bad name it is because there are as many of them as there are demons they can come up with. We used to plaster them on the flying buttresses to protect the integrity of the place. Remember? Exploitation? In Catholicism we are free to give and nobody is exploited. On top of that can anybody be an honored guest at many of its institutions which will always be without preaching or pressure to convert (remember here that in our view "sola scriptura" is the enemy of salvation).

I find them interesting. Just think how much they must disagree with the simplistic salvation message preached by protestants to do such things. I agree with them and suggest that they try climbing that mountain on their knees. However, their aim is not repentance but justification. Yes, I like it. I got some of Victor Hugo's novels but never found the time or ambition to read them. "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" sounds intruiging. I think his pantheism is really the fruition of his Catholicism (as it should be).

Ronin

While the Amos ~ Sabine exchange is absolutely captivating, I can’t help but notice that they seem to be contemplating the Emperor’s fine apparel from different perspectives…all while he is standing naked before them.

Carry on ~

abe smith

The so-called "Roman Catholic Church" (aka "The Cheuch") is a human fiction, a mental artefact, invented & kept in existence by a bunch of powercrazed males for their own benefit; and funded by others who use "the Cheuch" as a tool for running other human beings. MONEY and POWER are the "reasons".

Oxymoron

The Catholic Church: one of the most evil, hypocritical, and repressive regimes that exist, or has ever existed.

Plus points: without it, there's be no Father Ted, and The Meaning of Life just would not be the same. Er....

seebs

It's nice to know that at least the one-sidedness isn't one-sided.

Ronin

The Taliban are a-holes too, seebs ~ which 'side' do you find yourself on?

Amos

That's your opinion but you might agree that without them you would still be living in tribal America? Nah, they would have never got there yet! Maybe you'd still be figthing wars with sticks and stones in tribal Europe.