Darth Dane

to grant a planet conciousness to know what is good and bad is pure BS.

I never said that the planet has a conciosuness, however with the sceince lack of figuring out what conciousness is, I cannot rule out that possibility. Note: Possibility

Neither is a a god-layer required on top. I see nature as evidence of nature. Nothing more. If you are seeing a god in that, then what you are really saying is that there is no evidence. You are believing out of faith, and that god does not want us to find him (or maybe just doesn’t care). If we can both look at the same "evidence" and come to such widely different conclusions means that the evidence, at best, is dubious. Evidence to me would mean something incontrovertible, that both of us would see and say "Oh yes" and reach the same conclusion. [There have been many threads here on just what that evidence would be... I still think that lighting a grill would be a good one].

I never said it was required to have a God.
I cannot tell you what I see, because different people claim to know what it is I see. Am I seeing God, or am I seeing the universe? I don't know what I see, but I know that I do see.
I have light in my eyes and I can see.

Exactly, the Bible says that he is the evidence. The majority of Xians (I think) accept Jesus as the son of God. To believe that Jesus was not the Son of God makes one, in my opinion, not a Christian.

What if you believe that what Jesus said, was on behalf of the rest of mankind? When Jesus says "I and my father are one" could he be saying this on behalf of everybody else?


My point was that, if the bible is correct in that Jesus is the son of God, why was it OK for God to present the evidence to humans then, but it is not OK for him to do so now. Either God wants to be found, or he doesn’t. Why "reveal" himself to some people as "religous experiences" and not others?

That is why I have a theory that it was not so much "God" that sent Jesus, as it was teh rest of humankind. Jesus just said what the rest of teh world wanted to say but was afraid to.

Why not a level playing field with a consistent set of rules?

Maybe the rules are consistent, only we interpret them differently, thus giving a faulty interplay between humans.

Choosing to not use free will is an act of free will, isn't it?

Yes.

And not using it because you don't know its there - how is that free will?

Ok maybe Lucifer knew he had freewill.

And what exactly would be the result of NOT using free will?

That you would not think. If you only followed what everybody else said to you... EVERYTHING... Then you can conjure up a picture of what will happen. The ones who decide are happy, and the one who obeys is ....?

Somebody would have to chose for us... maybe they just got bored of being a puppet master and so "turned on" our free will?

Yes, possible. Consider approx 65 million years of "evolution" and then suddenly humans arise. If God, who has freewill, gave freewill to humans to create what they wanted, without God's interference, except through "nature", then we indeed have the freewill to create what we want. Want to fly on your own? "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you will move mountains"
Is this promise really real? Is this what freewill ultimately is?



Why would Satan be afraid of God?

The only reasonable explanation for why Satan turned on God is because he was bored.

Maybe Lucifer wasn't afraid of God, but loved to do whatever God wanted him to. BUt maybe after 65 million years lucifer got bored as you say. Maybe lucifer wanted to find out what would happen if he did the opposite of what God did!

God = Order
Lucifer/Satan = Chaos

Scientists tells us, that there is a law called entropy. That means that everything decays. So nature by its virtue of being "chaotic", more or less, could be equated to Satan.
Humans take what is chaos and creates order.
From where do humans get the urge to create order in chaos?
Some would argue it is God. But that means that humans have God-like qualities, but we also have satan-like qualities, namely that we can kill and pollute and cause chaos.
But humans have a freewill, and can decide what to do with what it sees. Either create order or create chaos.
We are the creators, as we choose what to do.




If God exists then he must be greater than all the tens of thousands of separate religions that exist, whether they are Christian, Hindu, Muslim, etc.

Yes I would concur.

Maybe many of the religions recognise some truth about God, but not the complete truth.

yes, sounds most likely.

Maybe because we are all individual we find God in many different ways, so we need a choice of many different ways.

The quest for "God" or understanding is a purely individual one, no organised religion gives this freewill as such. AFAIK.

I know that there are always people in religion who abuse the power that religion gives for their own ends of power, money, and violence.

Yes, it seems they are not working for teh good of teh people but themselves.

I cannot find it right now, so I will paraphrase.

"the priests had the keys to heaven but they didn't allow others to enter and they themselves didn't enter"

What is it that we aren't told?

Maybe one of the great weaknesses of religion is that we seem to use it to compete against each other, to own a greater truth than other faiths.

Yes, organised religion truy have flaws, not flaws that can't be mended but still.

But maybe God intended us to do more than believe in him?
Maybe belief is more about inspiring people to serve the community in some way.

Maybe God is more about building relationships.

Maybe it is. The community = earth?

Could the separate religions of the world be more acceptable to God if they were more open in working together for the greater good of humanity?
Would more people recognise God, if the religions of the world worked more visibly together despite their differences?

Yes, arguing about God seems to cause strife.

Strife is NOT practical if we want harmony. Considering how much strife we have experienced this past century, and the disharmony that followed. Maybe we as a whole sould try a different path.






DD - Love Spliff

mike_decock

I think of it more like this:

God = Personification of Good
Satan = Personification of Evil

Entropy only applies to a closed system. This world is not a closed system so entropy doesn't apply. Coal becomes an ordered diamond with heat and pressure. A drop of water becomes an ordered snowflake structure as it falls through a cold sky.

Order doesn't require intelligence, just the right conditions. Chaos provides the conditions.

The only group that doesn't argue about God amongst themselves is the atheists .

-Mike...

Darth Dane

Entropy only applies to a closed system.

Is the universe a closed system?

When we think of teh planet as that very small spot it is in the universe, it wouldn't matter to much if earth was obliterated. I mean, the rest of teh universe would still be spinning around

I wonder if we could just get along




DD - Love Spliff

mike_decock

I don't know.

-Mike...

Darth Dane

I don't know.

Yes, thats teh problem eh?
We simply do not know if the universe is a closed system, we simply cannot say if everything is just one giant orgasm of a dream, where everything is happening in the Mind of teh cosmos.

Even though, it is interesting to see how humans try to build order in reality by means of scientific(sp?) , religious and other means. Perhaps when we look at the way we structure Reality individually/subjectively, we may understand better how Reality presents itself to us, objectively. My point is that how am I to determine which Reality structure is the One true Reality structure, when everyone claim they hold the truth. Easily it seems that both atheist and believers can refute eachothers claims by the different eay they interpret, especially, holy texts, but also by new scientific discoveries.



It is surely a conundrum




DD - Love Spliff

mike_decock

I don't consider it a problem. It's an interesting question and an answer would be nice, but I don't worry about it. If our species survives long enough, we may eventually find the answer.

Perhaps that's a byproduct of subjective consciousness. Our consciousness enables us to be aware of things beyond our senses (essential for a complex society), but raises the question of what is beyond our awareness.



Why is it important to determine the "One True Reality Structure"?

My philosophy:

1) Pick the one that makes the most sense to you. Be honest with your own subjectivity and be aware that your perceptions are greatly influenced by your expectations.

2) Don't trust anyone who claims that they hold the Truth.

I think it's pretty simple. I follow these 3 rules:

1) Enjoy life.
2) Be good.
3) Be kind.

If there is a "Judgment Day" and I have done my best to do all 3, how could I be "justly" condemned for being ignorant of "The Truth"? Such a deity doesn't deserve to be in my presence for eternity.

-Mike...