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Old 04-22-2003, 07:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clarice O'C
Hi Haran
Hello.

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By 'real Jews' I mean like Jews today who don't believe that Jesus was the messiah. BCE ancients were real Jews because Jesus had not yet been written about as having been born leaving them as Jews and not Jewish Christians.
I guess my point is that I believe that many Jews of 1st century Israel did view Isaiah and other books as more than just history. I think that many of them kept an eye out for prophetic meaning hidden within many of their religious books, Isaiah especially (it was one of the most attested Biblical books in the DSS). The cultic documents from Qumran also make messianic appeals to Isaiah.

My personal opinion is that the Jews who followed Jesus slowly came to the opinion that he was the Messiah after his death upon remembering the things he said and did. They followed the examples of those before them and after them in looking to the religious books that many Jews of the time considered prophetic and applied those books to Jesus (as the Qumranites did in looking forward to their Messiah and as Rabbi Akiba did in referring to Simon Bar Kochba - or Kosiba if you prefer).
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Old 04-22-2003, 07:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Haran
Hello.



I guess my point is that I believe that many Jews of 1st century Israel did view Isaiah and other books as more than just history. I think that many of them kept an eye out for prophetic meaning hidden within many of their religious books, Isaiah especially (it was one of the most attested Biblical books in the DSS). The cultic documents from Qumran also make messianic appeals to Isaiah.

My personal opinion is that the Jews who followed Jesus slowly came to the opinion that he was the Messiah after his death upon remembering the things he said and did. They followed the examples of those before them and after them in looking to the religious books that many Jews of the time considered prophetic and applied those books to Jesus (as the Qumranites did in looking forward to their Messiah and as Rabbi Akiba did in referring to Simon Bar Kochba - or Kosiba if you prefer).
Hi,

Well, isn't it easy to read back into the Hebrew Scriptures something that had happened later, e.g., the Jesus story. I think that that is what the NT writers did.

It's like I could look back to one of the wars in the H.S. and try to find something there that could be used to predict the present war with Iraq.

Best,
Clarice
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Old 04-22-2003, 08:18 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clarice O'C
Well, isn't it easy to read back into the Hebrew Scriptures something that had happened later, e.g., the Jesus story. I think that that is what the NT writers did.
Sure. I think that some of the prophecies were well known in Jewish circles. Others the disciples probably "discovered" some point later while looking for meaning in the religious texts that provided them with guidance and direction in their lives.

If these messianic prophecies seemed to them to apply to Jesus by the standards of their day (similar to Rabbi Akiba w/ Simon bar Kochba), were they wrong to think that he might be the messiah?
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Old 04-22-2003, 10:54 PM   #34
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Not that it helps my case as a Christian any, but you're not applying this to the parthenos/bethulah/neanis/almah issue are you?

I think, at the moment, that the oldest Hebrew Biblical fragments of the DSS have almah and not bethulah. I've actually looked up the picture of the fragments in the DJD series to see for myself.

With the pluriformity of the texts, as you mentioned, there may have been Hebrew texts which read with bethulah. Or, almah may have implied parthenos to those writing the LXX.
No, I never stated that there are any DSS fragments of Isaiah which have bethulah in Isa 7:14. I expect were that the case you'd have heard about it by now.

Isaiah was a popular book at Qumran - at least 21 copies or fragments thereof (the Qumranians grooved on prophecy). Of these, only the Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsa^a) and the extremely fragmentary 4Q65 contain Isa 7:14. I've not looked up the critical edition of 4Q65 so I don't know if the word almah is preserved, but of course if 4Q65 used bethulah it would be quite a celebrated bit of trivia. 1QIsa^a I have seen, and although it does share a few readings in common with the LXX it is not characterized as LXX text type, and at any rate it has almah in 7:14. You don't have to look it up in DJD; you can see it here.

I should clarify my point, though. I presume that the appearance of parthenos in the LXX of Isa 7:14 originated with some Jewish scribe in Alexandria ca. 200 BCE who was translating Isaiah into Greek. I do not presume that his Hebrew exemplar contained bethulah in place of almah; rather I suspect that parthenos occurred as a result of inaccurate translation; according to Cross, Eichrodt, and others the LXX of Isaiah is quite spotty. The point is that it likely was not a Christian tradent who tendentiously inserted parthenos, as perhaps some anti-Christian polemicists are wont to believe. My remarks about LXX text type Hebrew scrolls at Qumran were meant to illustrate that the LXX, which began as a local translation by and for the Alexandrian Jewish community, was based on a different Hebrew exemplar than the emerging proto-rabbinic text, and that the text of the Hebrew Bible was pluriform at the time.

Returning to the matter of Immanuel, as pointed out by Blenkinsopp, the parallelism between Immanuel in Isa 7 and Maher-shalal-hash-baz in Isa 8 is noteworthy:
  • Immanuel / Maher-shalal-hash-baz
  • the young woman (ha`alma, 7:14) / the prophetess (haneviyah, 8:3)
  • young woman pregnant, about to bear a son (7:14) / she (the prophetess) conceived and bore a son (8:3)
  • she will name him Immanuel (7:14) / call him Maher-shalal-hash-baz (8:3)
  • before the child knows to reject the bad and choose the good (7:16) / before the child is able to cry "my father" or "my mother" (8:4)
  • king of Assyria (7:17) / king of Assyria (8:4)
  • threat of punishment of Judah by Assyrian proxies of Yahweh (7:18-25) / threat of punishment of Judah by Assyrian proxies of Yahweh (8:5-10)

Christian tradents had no particular use for the Maher-shalal-hash-baz material in Isa 8, but clearly there is a link between the two children (m-s-h-b and immanuel) in the text of Isaiah.
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Old 04-22-2003, 11:19 PM   #35
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You cant tell xstians how to use Midrash. Cant tell them hey, this is not a prophecy!
Can you?
Midrash, to a huge extent, is about making perceived "prophecies" come true.

In the same vein - can any atheist here tell us which prophecy can resonably be said to have come true - if any?
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Old 04-22-2003, 11:53 PM   #36
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Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years of exile (Jer 25:11) isn't so bad. If you count from the first Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem in 597 BCE, that takes you to 527 BCE, which is only 12 years after the Edict of Cyrus - not bad. I think that's the only bona fide prophecy which comes close. But one should never let numbers get in the way of a good prophecy!
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Old 04-23-2003, 03:59 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Haran
Sure. I think that some of the prophecies were well known in Jewish circles. Others the disciples probably "discovered" some point later while looking for meaning in the religious texts that provided them with guidance and direction in their lives.

If these messianic prophecies seemed to them to apply to Jesus by the standards of their day (similar to Rabbi Akiba w/ Simon bar Kochba), were they wrong to think that he might be the messiah?
G'day,

Maybe we should be looking harder at what the Jewish writers were really trying to say and set aside our biases as much as we can. However, my bias stems from my belief that no one can predict the future and I don't know how I can overcome that.

You asked, "were they wrong to think that he [Jesus] might be the messiah?" Well, what kind of messiah? Weren't the Israelites looking for a king like the other nations had to bring them together again in the period after David?

Best,
Clarice
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Old 04-23-2003, 05:01 AM   #38
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A question about the LXX/DSS texts: Is it accurate (and, if so, relevant) that the term parthenos is used for Dinah after her rape?
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Old 04-23-2003, 06:02 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Apikorus
Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years of exile (Jer 25:11) isn't so bad. If you count from the first Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem in 597 BCE, that takes you to 527 BCE, which is only 12 years after the Edict of Cyrus - not bad. I think that's the only bona fide prophecy which comes close. But one should never let numbers get in the way of a good prophecy!
Hi,

My opinion is that the role of the prophet was purely to call the Israelites back to their perceived choseness and away from their 'wicked' ways so that Jeremiah 25:11 is a declaration of the inevitable and not a prediction of the future. Roberts-Donaldson help us out by using the word "foretold" which I think accurately depicts what the prophets were doing rather than predicting the future which I think is what most people mean by "prophecy."

As well, we have here a chunk of history that helps to clarify what is going on in Chapter 25 of Jeremiah:

Theophilus of Antioch (Roberts-Donaldson)

CHAP. XXV.--FROM SAUL TO THE CAPTIVITY.

And after the judges they had kings, the first named Saul, who reigned 20 years; then David, our forefather, who reigned 40 years. Accordingly, there are to the reign of David [from Isaac] 496 years. And after these kings Solomon reigned, who also, by the will of God, was the first to build the temple in Jerusalem; he reigned 40 years. And after him Rehoboam, 17 years; and after him Abias, 7 years; and after him Asa, 41 years; and after him Jehoshaphat, 25 years; and after him Joram, 8 years; and after him Ahaziah, 1 year; and after him Athaliah, 6 years; and after her Josiah, 40 years; and after him Amaziah, 39 years; and after him Uzziah, 52 years; and after him Jotham, 16 years; and after him Ahaz, 17 years; and after him Hezekiah, 29 years; and after him Manasseh, 55 years; and after him Amon, 2 years; and after him Josiah, 31 years; and after him Jehoahaz, 3 months; and after him Jehoiakim, 11 years. Then another Jehoiakim, 3 months 10 days; and after him Zedekiah, 11 years. And after these kings, the people, continuing in their sins, and not repenting, the king of Babylon, named Nebuchadnezzar, came up into Judaea, according to the prophecy of Jeremiah. He transferred the people of the Jews to Babylon, and destroyed the temple which Solomon had built. And in the Babylonian banishment the people passed 70 years. Until the sojourning in the land of Babylon, there are therefore, in all, 4954 years 6 months and 10 days. And according as God had, by the prophet Jeremiah, foretold that the people should be led captive to Babylon, in like manner He signified beforehand that they should also return into their own land after 70 years. These 70 years then being accomplished, Cyrus becomes king of the Persians, who, according to the prophecy of Jeremiah, issued a decree in the second year of his reign, enjoining by his edict that all Jews who were in his kingdom should return to their own country, and rebuild their temple to God, which the fore-mentioned king of Babylon had demolished. Moreover, Cyrus, in compliance with the instructions of God, gave orders to his own bodyguards, Sabessar and Mithridates, that the vessels which had been taken out of the temple of Judaea by Nebuchadnezzar should be restored, and placed again in the temple. In the second year, therefore, of Darius are fulfilled the 70 years which were foretold by Jeremiah.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lus-book3.html

Does anyone know the approximate date that Jeremiah was written?

Best,
Clarice
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Old 04-23-2003, 06:15 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clarice O'C
Does anyone know the approximate date that Jeremiah was written?
The events of Jeremiah are approximately from 626-586 BCE, and it was probably written around that time. However, chapters 40-44 are exilic additions (this is from my notes, I can't remember exactly why I came to that conclusion, or my sources for that). Try LaRue's Old Testament Life and Literature in the Secular Web library.

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