Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bluefugue · 01-24-2002, 12:20 PM

Some of the details are harder to swallow, though. Eve being made of Adam's rib, for instance. A talking snake. And didn't YHWH originally make Adam out of clay -- shades of Prometheus?

crocodile deathroll · 01-24-2002, 12:49 PM

I took out the world book dictionary out to just enlighten you the definition of the word "day"
As you see it is not so simple and there are at least nine definitions here.
day:
1 the time between sunrise and sunset; Days are longer in summer than in winter. Even the fall of leaves in autumn may be postponed with an artificial increase in the length of day (Eric Ashby)
2 the light of day; daylight A cloudy day, a sunny day
3. a the 24 hours of day and night; the time its takes for the Earth to make one rotation on its axis: the day is increasing in length by about one- to two-thousandth of a second per century b. a day at a point or unit of time or on which something happens : The third day he shall rise again (Matthew 20:19
4. a certain day on which something happened set aside for a particular purpose or for celebration. Christmas Day, New Years Day.
5. hours of work; working day: an eight hour day
6. a time; the present day, in days of old
7. a period of life, activity power or influence:he has seen better days. Our little systems have their day (Tennyson)
8. a conflict; contest: Our basketball team won the day and thus the country championship too. The argument of the prosecution had carried the day, and the prosecutor leaned back on his chair with a sigh of satisfaction
9 a victory: The trumpets sound retreat, the day is ours (Shakespeare)

The Bible places strong emphasis on def 1 or 3, so if it says day that is the sought of day it means. So the Bible says day it really does mean a 24 hour Earth day

With firmament however it is a lot more straight forward
firmament
"the arch or vault of the heavens; sky": Knowledge, in Truth, is the great sun in the firmament
(Daniel Webster)

So it is a vault, and vault and firmament are use interchangeably in different versions of Bibles.
And I shall now define what denotes vault
vault
1.a.an arched masonry or concrete structure built so that the parts support each other, serving as a roof or covering over a space b. an arched roof or ceiling. c. something like an arched roof, especially the sky: Heaven's ebon vault, Studded with stars
2. an underground cellar or store house
3. a place for storing valuable things and keeping them safe
4. an arched space under the floor of a church, crypt. b. a place for burial
5. a natural cavern or cave
6. Anatomy an arched structure especially the scull.

So the emphasis is on a semicircular "arch" and if you look at many an old bank vault, that is clearly evident.

It is clearly does not mean a "celestial sphere" or the "vast cosmos".
Just like day does not mean "era" or "epoch".

So the Bible describing the sky as a firmament is very much in keeping with a flat earth, because any such vault has a floor, and the floor we are speaking of here is a flat earth
Unless you are prepared to preach day means day because the Bible says day and not "era" or "epoch" firmament means firmament because the Bible says firmament and not "celestial sphere" or atmosphere.
The trouble is although those fundamentalist young earth creationist like Ken Ham can pull the wool over the eyes of 100 million Americans with the six day creation because the Bible says "day ". so it is literally day. I do not feel they would be so embracing of a flat earth because the Bible specifically says the sky is a firmament. If they are really sincere, the likes of Ken Ham will be preaching not only young earth creationism, but also flat earth creationism. But they are not sincere are they. They just want to pass their buckets around their gatherings so you can fill them up with your money and they just laugh all the way to the bank.
Their bank balances will surely drop if they started preaching such preposterous flat earth creationism, and the six day creation story even more preposterous than the flat earth. At least the earth is slightly fattened at the poles due the centrifugal force of its rotation and there are a few rather "flattish" asteroids out there, if you would like to fly a few young earth creationists on them on a one way trip.

John Solum · 01-24-2002, 02:00 PM

Here's a couple of links to Art Chadwick:

His home page:
<a href="http://origins.swau.edu/who/chadwick/default.html" target="_blank">http://origins.swau.edu/who/chadwick/default.html</a>

The Earth History Resource Center:
<a href="http://origins.swau.edu/<a href="http://origins.swau.edu/" target="_blank">http://origins.swau.edu/</a>" target="_blank">http://origins.swau.edu/<a href="http://origins.swau.edu/" target="_blank">http://origins.swau.edu/</a></a>

I think he's wrong, but I do think he's honest.

Thanks for providing the link to the talk.origins post by Troy Britian about Ken Ham (that's the post I referred to in my original message). I've got a copy of the letter Troy Britian gets his quotes from, and they're accurate.

Quote:

The last part sounds fishy: "Your gift of even $38.65 will help provide answers to our
questioning and hurting nation!"

Maybe it originally said UK$10 or AUS$20 or something.

Ken Ham is asking for a gift of "even $38.65" because the total cost of the museum is $3.865 million. He's asking for money to build his museum near Cincinnati (In Kentucky IIRC).

Quote:

Well as a creationist I didn't think that evolutionists usually deliberately got people sinning a lot and going to hell. But I think I thought that the devil worked through them, to undermine the Bible including the Gospel message.

I can understand that attitude, but what about the following statement by Ham:

Quote:

What I call 'soul-destroying terrorists' are on the move as never before,
intent on 'destroying' the most important part of every human being -- the
soul, which will live for eternity in either Heaven or Hell.

Quote:

And many creationists mightn't think that a belief in creation is really necessary for salvation, but it does make you take the Bible more seriously and avoid moral decay (e.g. now there are legal brothels in Nevada, premarital and homosexual sex everywhere including on TV, etc)

Brothels in Nevada aren't anything new, I'm from Utah originally, and Nevada brothels have been the butt of jokes for a long time. When I did field work in Nevada my advisor used to tell me that he wouldn't accept any receipts from Wells (a town along I-80 that's well-known for it's brothels). I don't know when they were legalized, but I know they've been around for a long time.

Darwin's Finch · 01-24-2002, 02:50 PM

John Solum: "Brothels in Nevada aren't anything new. I'm from Utah originally, and Nevada brothels have been the butt of jokes for a long time."

That's funny. Around here, Utah is the frequent butt of jokes.

excreationist · 01-24-2002, 03:59 PM

John Solum:

Quote:

I can understand that attitude, but what about the following statement by Ham:

What I call 'soul-destroying terrorists' are on the move as never before, intent on 'destroying' the most important part of every human being -- the soul, which will live for eternity in either Heaven or Hell.

I think he said he was talking about the humanists who specifically are against religion and God and think that humans can decide their own morality (be their own masters).

Quote:

Brothels in Nevada aren't anything new, I'm from Utah originally, and Nevada brothels have been the butt of jokes for a long time. When I did field work in Nevada my advisor used to tell me that he wouldn't accept any receipts from Wells (a town along I-80 that's well-known for it's brothels). I don't know when they were legalized, but I know they've been around for a long time.

There were prostitutes even in Genesis! My point isn't that they are a recent phenomena (they aren't) or that they are legalized in some places (like the Netherlands) - but my point is, they are legalized in some parts of your OWN country, the U.S.!
To be legalized in a democracy means that a lot of people don't think it is wrong.

Kosh · 01-24-2002, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by excreationist:
<strong>
To be legalized in a democracy means that a lot of people don't think it is wrong.</strong>

Ironically, it is illegal in the one city
(Las Vegas) where most of the population
lives!

Never understood why.

John Solum · 01-25-2002, 04:58 AM

Darwin's Finch:

Quote:

That's funny. Around here, Utah is the frequent butt of jokes.

As a Utahn, that's something I encourage. There are already too many Californians (and even worse New Yorkers) moving there (I guess I can't complain about that too much since my dad's originally from Long Beach).

Excreationist:

Quote:

I think he said he was talking about the humanists who specifically are against religion and God and think that humans can decide their own morality (be their own masters).

Fair enough. From that letter I never could tell just who he included in the deliberate soul-destroying terrorist category.

Quote:

There were prostitutes even in Genesis! My point isn't that they are a recent phenomena (they aren't) or that they are legalized in some places (like the Netherlands) - but my point is, they are legalized in some parts of your OWN country, the U.S.!
To be legalized in a democracy means that a lot of people don't think it is wrong.

My point was that since they're nothing new they can't be pointed to as a sign of moral decay.

Kosh:

Quote:

Ironically, it is illegal in the one city
(Las Vegas) where most of the population
lives!

Never understood why.

Prostitution's illegal in Carson City (the capital of Nevada) too. I don't know why it's technically illegal in Vegas (maybe it has something to do with the fact that Vegas was founded by Mormon settlers), but it's certainly pretty common there.

crocodile deathroll · 01-25-2002, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

I disagree. I think the very reason so many
Christians still buy the myth is that they are
at fairly watered down levels of suspension of
disbelief. Let's look out how the Genesis myth
is portrayed:
It's statements like "And then God said let there
be light, and there was light".

How could he create light, night and day before he created the sun on the 4th day? just proves how quaintly archaic the genesis story is.

Quote:

And then God made man, and all the birds of
sky,etc, etc.
I know this is nt word for word accurate, but you
see where I'm going, right?
It says that God did it, it says it occurred,
but leaves the actual manifestation of the miracle
up to the imagination of the listener.

Not so with Bibliolaters like Ken Ham, he takes it all literally with no room for any imagination.

Quote:

Compare this to other myths where they say
stuff like "And then the earth burst forth from
the gods belly".

Well the Bible stated that man was created in the image of the (I guess referring to more one God) "Ourselves" plural.
That has a lot a parallels with other creation myths. And even the Bible opens with two very different creation stories, the Seven day Creation story and the Garden of Eden. Just as different as 2 comparable creation stories like the Greek and the Norse ones.

crocodile deathroll

excreationist · 01-26-2002, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Solum:
My point was that since they're nothing new they can't be pointed to as a sign of moral decay.

In the old days prostitution was against the law in countries where the majority were God's people. In America almost 90% identify themselves as being Christians and yet brothels are legal in parts of America.
Witchcraft and homosexual sex were also crimes in godly nations. But now, thanks to the liberal school system and TV, it is in our homes (on TV usually) and our children our indoctrinated by it in our schools.
Some quotes by <a href="http://shop.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/AIGUS.storefront/3c529fa2031b0dde2719ac1410010605/Product/View/30&2D1&2D024" target="_blank">Ken Ham's "The Genesis Solution"</a>: (also a video made in 1987 that has some cool cartoons)

p84-85 - cool picture (from the cartoons) showing people going into a high school - an environmentalist with a sign saying "New Age", Darwin with his book leading a monkey, a Yogi(?) meditating while two Indians carry him on a stretcher, a salesman with an exciting sign saying "Big Bang", a nurse with a box saying "birth control", Einstein carrying lots of books, and some kind of rocket scientist. A normal looking man with a huge box of junk which says "creation evidence" is stopped by someone in charge of the school.

Quote:

In many public schools today, entrance is freely given to all sorts of questionable beliefs and theories, including the philosophies of the New Age movement. But when scientists and teachers attempt to present valid scientific evidence against Evolution, they are frequently prohibited. Our education system is creating a godless generation; millions of people are totally lacking foundational knowledge of their Creator, Redeemer, and Judge. The sad result is becoming all too obvious.

So a godless generation is obvious more immoral, right? And now there's legal abortion, etc, too.

More quotes:

Quote:

1. Two Religions In Conflict
......
There are four common misconceptions about scientists:
- Scientists are objective
- Scientists are unbiased.
- Science is infallible. If a scientist says it, you can trust it.
- A real scientist always wears a white lab coat [with ideallic illustration]

The truth is: scientists are human and, therefore, biased - just like all other human beings. Their theories, research, and interpretation of evidence are affected by their chosen beliefs about life and origins. [picture of scientist in hawaiin shirt and sneakers relaxing in a messy office with a tennis racket and reading a book messily entitled "evolution". There is writing on a easel which says "I choose to believe in evolution."]
....
2. Choosing Your Bias
Biases - We All Have Them
The Bias of Atheists
Atheists emphatically believe that "there is no God." But with that as their bias, whenever they look at evidence, they can never truly ask questions like "Did God create?" or "Could the Bible be true?"..... Even if an atheistic scientist found a big boat (Noah's ark) on top of Mount Ararat, he might deny that it was proof of a biblical Flood. He would have to claim that it was a religious hoax, coincidence or something else. Whatever his explanation, he could never accept the Flood judgment as fact and still maintain his atheism.

[he is actually pretty persuasive if you are a naive Christian, like I was]

The Bias of Agnostics [they usually don't accept evidence for creationism either, because of their "sitting on the fence" bias]

The Bias of Bible-Believing Christians
....although there is plently of good evidence to support this belief, it is ultimately a decision of faith.
....

"Well, theories will keep on changing, won't they?" asked Ken.
"Certainly!" he replied.
...
"That means you can't be sure about Evolution either can you?" asked Ken.
"Oh no!" the scientist exclaimed. "Evolution is a fact!"
Once again, we see that Evolution is a belief, not science. Evolution is that scientist's bias and his faith.

Which Bias Is The Best?
.....

We Prefer Belief in Creation
In reality, the controversy between Scientific Creationism and Evolutionism is not religion versus science. It is really the science of one religion versus the science of another religion. Christians have good reason to prefer belief in Creation:
1. It fits better with the facts.
2. It has a clear and inherent advantage over Evolutionism, since it is based upon the records from someone who was there from the very beginning: the all-knowing Creator.
3. Christians can know the Creator personally.
[p44]

5. Rejecting the Creator's Authority
"Why Can't I Write My Own Rules?"
.....His problem began when he rejected the Creation account. He thus concluded, "Nobody made me. I'm just a product of time and chance. I own myself. I'm my own boss and will write my own rules - and so can everyone else." But he - like most such thinkers - is not ready to endorse that last part entirely.
Only the Creator has the ultimate right to set absolutes:
1. The Creator made us.
2. Therefore, the Creator owns us and everything else in his Creation.
3. As the owner, he has a right to set standards of what is right and what is wrong. He is the absolute authority.
4. What better ruler could we ask for than the One who is all-good, all-powerful and all-knowing? Who would know better what the rules should be? Only he has the knowledge, wisdom, and right to set absolute standards.

[quite persuasive indeed - to naive Christians I mean]

Total Acceptance of Evolutionism Can Lead to Anarchy
If you believe you are simply a product of chance and random evolutionary processes, who owns you? You do. Who has a right to make the rules and to decide what is right and wrong? You do. But since everyone else also has that same right, the ultimate result will be either chaos and anarchy or absolute dictatorship.
**[this is probably the best way to attack Ken Ham... it would involve admitting that morality can be personal, but it is in our interests to have a stable society - based on contracts where we expect others to behave as well. (Obey democratic rules, etc). Perhaps Ken won't see this as being very threatening and just shrug it off - Note that Ken will probably say that democracies without Biblical literalism leads to legal prostitution, etc, but to counter this, make sure you emphasize that the democracies can decide on what is or isn't physically or emotionally harmful for themselves. They aren't bothered with what offends God. Sometimes they might make mistakes (by being too liberal) but after experimenting they learn from their mistakes (hopefully)]**
In the Book of Judges there is a lesson to be learned... Individuals followed their own opinions and became involved in all sorts of evil practices....
If God's standard is removed, what happens to the concept of "sin"? Without God's absolute laws, it crumbles. Paul told us that God gave the law so we would understand what sin was all about. If one removes the law, sin becomes an obsolete concept in most people's minds. And the Law-giver - the Creator - becomes either (a) distant and less important, or (b) discounted as an archaic idea developed by ancient and "superstituous" peoples. [And we all know that isn't true, right?

]

What Is Going Wrong With People and Society?
...As the absolute basis of the rules and laws found in God's Word is rejected, it will be replaced by a belief that says "Everything is relative, so everyone can have his own opinions and standards." Christian ethics will be increasingly rejected. Fewer and fewer will live by Old and New Testament ideals concerning right and wrong. Marriages will disolve and family life deteriorate. There will be a rise in abortion, homosexuality, pornography, and lawlessness of all types. People will do whatever they can get away with......

[picture of ideallized family sitting on a rock entitled "Genesis"]
Modern families and society face many crucial problems and issues, including Evolutionism, promiscuity, homosexuality, divorce, abortion, and a general disregard for absolutes. To survive and flourish in these tumultous times, Christians must understand and believe Genesis. All of what we think should be brought into subjection to the One who owns everything.

6. Opinions and Christian Life
...
People who teach a tolerance of all beliefs almost invariably oppose Christianity. They cannot tolerate Christians saying, "Here's what's right and here's what's wrong. God says it. And so that is final."....It is not difficult to see that this popular philosophy is an anti-biblical way of thinking - so dangerous, in fact, that it could one day lead to the outlawing of Christians. [True believers are persecuted!]

Christianity and Personal Opinion
...What happens today when churches address issues like abortion, homosexuality, women's role in the church, [women aren't allowed to speak in church or have authority over a man] and so on? All too often, Christians are simply offering lots of different opinions, eagerly expressing their own ideas and beliefs. Often their leaders participate by merely summarizing these differing viewpoints and stopping short of supplying a definite conclusion about what is right or wrong according to God's word.
The wonderful truth is that, as Christians, we can base our lives on something much more substantial than mere personal opinions! We have foundational knowledge from an Infinite Being, our Creator, to guide us....

7. Did God Use the Evolutionary Process?

8. Evolutionism Destroys the Gospel

9. Sex and Marriage - The Genesis Connection
...
[p75]
The Issue of Homosexuality
Understanding the biblical basis for marriage makes the question of homosexuality as easy one for Christians to solve. Homosexuality is wrong for several reasons:
1. God made Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve!...And he created different and mutually complementary sexual parts. Sexual intercourse between males is not a natural use of the body parts that God created (Rom. 1:24-27)
2. God told mankind to be fruitful and multiply...
3. The Creator severely judged [death penalty] and condemned the sin of homosexuality....

If you are not a Christian and yet do believe in marriage, remember that you have no "logical" basis for it. Imagine, for instance, that you had a son who wanted to marry another man, instead of a woman. Without the Bible, you have little reason for justifying why the action might be wrong. [but is there actually any real *harm*, besides offending God...? that could be the best question idea I've come up with yet. Ken might say that homos kill themselves more (due to fundies) and die of diseases more]

11. The Destruction of Society
Other Ways in Which Evolutionary Teaching Can Destroy Society
1. Decrease in marriage (fewer people will bother with it)
2. Decrease in the work ethic. Genesis is where man was told to work. It also reveals why work has become hard - a result of sin and God's curse.
3. Fewer men will act as heads of families. Without a Genesis base, people will question why a man should be the head of the house.
4. More people will question the value of life. After all, if God didn't create life and we are here by chance, what value is life anyway - especially when life is unhappy?
5. Increase in suicides, "mercy killings," and euthanasia.
6. Increase in promiscuity.
7. Increase in all forms of self-indulgence.
8. Increase in pornography.
9. Increase in abortions.
10. Increase in public nudity. The only moral basis for clothing and modesty is founded in Genesis.
11. Decreasing ability of juries and judges to agree on verdicts. What basis do they have for deciding right and wrong punishments if there are no clear definitions of "criminality"?
12. Increase in rape and sexual abuse of children. The attitude will be that sexual desires are a natural part of our animal instincts. "If a person can get what he wants, why not take it?"
13. Increase in homosexuality. The only basis for forbidding it is in the Bible, beginning with Genesis.
14. Increase in theft and violence. If there is no God, what is "morality," except whatever you want to make it? All becomes relative.
15. Decreasing respect for law. Increasing anarchy.
16. Increasing government control. Examples: Questioning parents' rights over their children; government legislation to "protect" children from their parents (some of which is justified due to rampant child abuse by parents' acting out their ungodly thoughts and attitudes); ***[I think a really good question to ask is to quote all the verses in Proverbs which talk about using a "rod" on your child to discipline him. You could say "I have been arguing with liberal Christians about the "rod" part and they reckon it is a metaphor or sumthin and I reckon it's literal! That you're meant to use a stick to discipline your kids if they are sinning a lot. So what do you think Ken?" Ken will have to say that at least some form of physical punishment is sometimes appropriate, but maybe say it is better to save their souls from hell than avoid some bruises...]*** increasing government control over education; stifling of religious liberty.
17. Increasing rule of Communism and other atheistic and authoritarian governments.

Christians, Wake up!
These things are exactuly what we are seeing in today's society.....

Well it goes on and on, but I think those are some of the fundamentals. If you have any ideas for questions, please ask them here (or send me a private message - which I occassionally check) so that I can see how good they are.

I think the one about the rod is the best one.

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=rod&SearchType=AND&version=NIV&restri ct=&StartRestrict=PROV&EndRestrict=PROV&language=e nglish" target="_blank">Here</a> is a search for "rod" in Proverbs in the NIV. Note that it also talks about a rod for the backs of fools. You should wear "church clothes" - like a nice pastel sweater or long-sleeved shirt with the top button done up or something (but not too overdone). And you hair nicely combed.
I typed out a lot more than I planned on doing but you can see what his lectures are like (you can probably listen to audio of him on the AiG site). Societies acceptance of gays and abortion has definitely increased over the past few decades.
I think a lot of the perception that families and crime is getting worse is because of the TV and things. In the 50's TV involve happy families, no sex-scenes, etc. As time went by, there was more murder and sex on T.V. So within the living memory of older adults, society seen through the TV, has gotten a lot worse. And promiscuity has probably increased, not just on T.V. at least compared to a century or two ago.

Quote:

Prostitution's illegal in Carson City (the capital of Nevada) too. I don't know why it's technically illegal in Vegas (maybe it has something to do with the fact that Vegas was founded by Mormon settlers), but it's certainly pretty common there.

Well in a <a href="http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=109383" target="_blank">Straight Dope messageboard thread</a> a poster says:

"Prostitution is illegal in Nevada counties with populations above 250,000, if I remember the law correctly. There are only two counties in the state with populations that large: Clark and Washoe."

Another said:
"Well, the travel channel (or is it TLC) is doing a special on Vegas all this week as it turns out at 8/8 E/P. They got around to the prostitution bit last night.
They said that according to the state law that prostitution was legal in counties with a population less than 400,000 which included 10 of Nevada's 17 counties. Also said was that the brothels were not allowed to advertise and that you had to get directions from someone who knew the way (a cabbie or concierge.)"

Kosh · 01-26-2002, 08:58 AM

Quote:

From AIG:
<strong>10. Increase in public nudity. The only moral basis for clothing and modesty is founded in Genesis.
</strong>

Hamm is an even bigger moron that I had thought
after seeing snippets of him on the evolution
documentary.

Of course, we all know people only wear clothing
because the bible tells us to. Has nothing to do
with protection from cold, weather, etc, or the
fact that:

"Most people look better with their clothes on!"
- Rosanna Rosannadanna

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01-24-2002, 12:20 PM	#21
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	Some of the details are harder to swallow, though. Eve being made of Adam's rib, for instance. A talking snake. And didn't YHWH originally make Adam out of clay -- shades of Prometheus?

01-24-2002, 12:49 PM	#22
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	I took out the world book dictionary out to just enlighten you the definition of the word "day" As you see it is not so simple and there are at least nine definitions here. day: 1 the time between sunrise and sunset; Days are longer in summer than in winter. Even the fall of leaves in autumn may be postponed with an artificial increase in the length of day (Eric Ashby) 2 the light of day; daylight A cloudy day, a sunny day 3. a the 24 hours of day and night; the time its takes for the Earth to make one rotation on its axis: the day is increasing in length by about one- to two-thousandth of a second per century b. a day at a point or unit of time or on which something happens : The third day he shall rise again (Matthew 20:19 4. a certain day on which something happened set aside for a particular purpose or for celebration. Christmas Day, New Years Day. 5. hours of work; working day: an eight hour day 6. a time; the present day, in days of old 7. a period of life, activity power or influence:he has seen better days. Our little systems have their day (Tennyson) 8. a conflict; contest: Our basketball team won the day and thus the country championship too. The argument of the prosecution had carried the day, and the prosecutor leaned back on his chair with a sigh of satisfaction 9 a victory: The trumpets sound retreat, the day is ours (Shakespeare) The Bible places strong emphasis on def 1 or 3, so if it says day that is the sought of day it means. So the Bible says day it really does mean a 24 hour Earth day With firmament however it is a lot more straight forward firmament "the arch or vault of the heavens; sky": Knowledge, in Truth, is the great sun in the firmament (Daniel Webster) So it is a vault, and vault and firmament are use interchangeably in different versions of Bibles. And I shall now define what denotes vault vault 1.a.an arched masonry or concrete structure built so that the parts support each other, serving as a roof or covering over a space b. an arched roof or ceiling. c. something like an arched roof, especially the sky: Heaven's ebon vault, Studded with stars 2. an underground cellar or store house 3. a place for storing valuable things and keeping them safe 4. an arched space under the floor of a church, crypt. b. a place for burial 5. a natural cavern or cave 6. Anatomy an arched structure especially the scull. So the emphasis is on a semicircular "arch" and if you look at many an old bank vault, that is clearly evident. It is clearly does not mean a "celestial sphere" or the "vast cosmos". Just like day does not mean "era" or "epoch". So the Bible describing the sky as a firmament is very much in keeping with a flat earth, because any such vault has a floor, and the floor we are speaking of here is a flat earth Unless you are prepared to preach day means day because the Bible says day and not "era" or "epoch" firmament means firmament because the Bible says firmament and not "celestial sphere" or atmosphere. The trouble is although those fundamentalist young earth creationist like Ken Ham can pull the wool over the eyes of 100 million Americans with the six day creation because the Bible says "day ". so it is literally day. I do not feel they would be so embracing of a flat earth because the Bible specifically says the sky is a firmament. If they are really sincere, the likes of Ken Ham will be preaching not only young earth creationism, but also flat earth creationism. But they are not sincere are they. They just want to pass their buckets around their gatherings so you can fill them up with your money and they just laugh all the way to the bank. Their bank balances will surely drop if they started preaching such preposterous flat earth creationism, and the six day creation story even more preposterous than the flat earth. At least the earth is slightly fattened at the poles due the centrifugal force of its rotation and there are a few rather "flattish" asteroids out there, if you would like to fly a few young earth creationists on them on a one way trip.

01-24-2002, 02:50 PM	#24
Darwin's Finch Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Gardnerville, NV Posts: 666	John Solum: "Brothels in Nevada aren't anything new. I'm from Utah originally, and Nevada brothels have been the butt of jokes for a long time." That's funny. Around here, Utah is the frequent butt of jokes.

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