Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Goliath · 12-13-2002, 05:15 PM

Nevermind...

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]</p>

Mad Kally · 12-13-2002, 05:19 PM

Quote:

posted by Amie:
The thought of throwing your child out of the house because their beliefs do not conform to your own makes me sick. I am really disappointed in my brother...At least he is taking my nephew to dinner tonight so they can talk it over.
I hope he realizes what a mistake he is making. Children should be loved unconditionally...
Amie~

emphasis mine

Thanks Amie,
I don't know any atheists in real life except for one of my best friends. She lives far away now. My mom is most likely more mentally ill than anything else. I hope that's what it is. I've never been able to figure out why she spews so much hatred at me. She is like a robot and keeps repeating "Your knees will bow on judgement day, but it will be too late!"

The only unconditional love I've ever experienced is my chihuahua, Lenny.

I hope your brother realizes that he is pushing his child further away. I hope the kid doesn't have to go through all the anger, guilt and fear I've lived through. The anger almost ate me alive!

Thanks again,
Kally

Biff the unclean · 12-13-2002, 05:23 PM

Oh this is ridiculous. I believe in God, that is what I say. By using the term "lie" that means I intend to deceive and I do not. It is simply my belief... hey if you want to think people are immoral for believing in God, Knock yourself out Biff...

Okay, let's try this same logic on another subject. A nasty one, to get away from the glamour you associate with the God concept. I apologize in advance if it seems crude, I just want to remove it as far as possible.

I don't know whether you have cancer or not. I don't have a clue about even how I would find out if you did had cancer.
But if I follow your prescribed style logic I would have to only consider the fact that I didn't know that you don't have cancer. So I should, it follows, believe that you have cancer. I should testify that you have cancer.
Surely you see how wrong that is. If I said such a thing about you it might have detrimental effects on you (much like the detrimental effects Atheists suffer from Theists). If I say that something is a fact when I don't know to be a fact then I am lying. Even if it turns out later to be a fact I would still be lying because I didn't know that when I said it. And that simply would not be moral.
Were I to keep my big trap shut and not tell people that you had this cancer, that I haven't a clue about, but just quietly believed it--then I would be lying to myself. Not really immoral but not a very productive thing to do, actually it's pretty self-destructive.

I tend to have respect others beliefs regardless of the fact I may not agree. You don't. to each his own...
And it doesn't occur to you that all of those remarks you have made about me being close-minded and having my "own view of reality" contradicts your proud boast of the respect you have for others beliefs. Because you don't agree with what I'm saying you point blank refuse to consider it, are disrespectful to me for holding opinions that differ from yours and never realize that I am trying to help you.

Amie · 12-13-2002, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean:
Okay, let's try this same logic on another subject. A nasty one, to get away from the glamour you associate with the God concept.

nope no glamour involved.

Quote:

I don't know whether you have cancer or not.

I do not, to my knowledge...

Quote:

(much like the detrimental effects Atheists suffer from Theists)

I am sorry you feel this way, I really am...

Quote:

If I say that something is a fact when I don't know to be a fact then I am lying.

Please show me when I claimed anything to be a fact...

Quote:

are disrespectful to me for holding opinions that differ from yours and never realize that I am trying to help you.

No Biff. Go back and reread your posts as well as mine.
I respect you for not believing, you having an opinion different than mine is not the problem. Have I called you a liar for believing what you do? have I said you were immoral? no. However you did say those things. Read my post to mageth. Its not a point of view I share, but I can respect what his opinion is.

If you are trying to "help" me, I don't want help like that.
I have nothing else to say to you Biff.

Vorkosigan · 12-13-2002, 05:51 PM

Belief in gods, magic/miracles, and "supernatural" is morally neutral.

I do NOT agree. Such beliefs are evil, I think. I'll put a longer post in the Morals Forum later.

Vorkosigan

Biff the unclean · 12-13-2002, 07:00 PM

I do not, to my knowledge...
I'm glad. I do.

much like the detrimental effects Atheists suffer from Theists
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am sorry you feel this way, I really am...
It's the way of the world. Christians tell you how wonderful and kind and loving they are�and then�bam! Wish your Nephew a Merry Christmas for me. He's learned it's true meaning far too early.

If I say that something is a fact when I don't know to be a fact then I am lying.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please show me when I claimed anything to be a fact...

I was explaining why I did things and what my moral standards were. I didn't mention you.
If you can explain to me how you can say that something IS when you can't prove that it is, and justify that on the grounds that you can't say it isn't, and that is telling the truth�whew�I'd love to hear it.

No Biff. Go back and reread your posts as well as mine.
I respect you for not believing, you having an opinion different than mine is not the problem.
I went back and reread what you had written before composing my last note. Other than adding "condescension" I stand by what I wrote.

Have I called you a liar for believing what you do?
Of course not, I wasn't lying and I was able to explain my reasoning.
I don't believe just because I believe.
have I said you were immoral?
Why would you? I am not.
However you did say those things.
Yes. But you don't find me boasting that I have such respect for the beliefs of others. I do not. Some are ridiculous, some are very harmful (that poor nephew of yours, he'll carry this around for the rest of his life) and I'm not afraid to say so. But unlike Christians, Moslems, Hindus, etc.. the only "harmful" thing I use against these people is logic and reason.
Sometimes it stings a bit, but then Second Corinthians 11:19 and all that.

If you are trying to "help" me, I don't want help like that.
I have nothing else to say to you Biff.
You don't want help? I'm not surprised, you are very closed minded.

Darkblade · 12-13-2002, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean:

There was a story back in my hometown in Ireland when I was a kid. One of my neighbors were to Lourdes-problem with "the change" don't cha know. And she was there waiting and waiting for the "service of healing" to begin. She's having a hot flash and spies an empty wheelchair so she sits down a bit, until she feels herself again. In the mean time the Mass began. After a while she thinks 'It's wrong for me to be in this chair. I'd better get up and let someone who needs it sit." So she stands up from the wheel chair and some Spanish women who were standing nearby scream. "She's healed, she's healed!!" The crowd became so excited over the miracle that they mobbed her trying to get close to the blessed happening. She was knocked to the ground and her leg was broken.
Came home from Lourdes in a wheelchair she did.

This is classic.

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean:

I don't know whether you have cancer or not.

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:

I do not, to my knowledge�

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean:

I'm glad. I do.

I�m sorry that you have cancer, and I hope you get better.

Biff the unclean · 12-14-2002, 12:42 PM

Thank you, I'm on the mend and should be just fine.
I might add that this is entirely due to science, no miracles were involved, just harded nosed skeptics dealing solely with facts.

Fiach · 12-14-2002, 04:54 PM

There is an important difference between respecting a person and respecting the person's beliefs.

I have many Christian and Muslim friends, and I respect them. On rare occasions we debate and it gets a tad heated. But we usually stop say "break, we are mates not enemies who disagree on God and religion."

I have great respect for my christian friends and several christian family members. But I make no secret that I don't respect Christian Theology/Mythology/Superstition. They admit that they think Atheism is morally wrong and that I am going to Hell. They say that they don't want me to go to Hell, and wish it weren't so.

Most of the wars of the last 1700 years have had religious overtones. But it wasn't religion that fueled the wars but people hating people who believed differently. We must avoid that trap.

In future, I will make statements that Christians will find offencive. I will give an example. The 6 day creation myth is irrational and has been disproven by fossil and geological evidence. To believe in it, in my opinion is foolish. Original Sin, Inherited guilt, God's impregnation of a human girl to produce a god-man for blood sacrifice, and the resurrection are all barmy myths for which I have absolutely no respect.

Now, that doesn't mean I hate Christians or Muslims. I only hope that they apply the same methodology to me as an Atheist.

Fiach

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12-13-2002, 05:15 PM	#151
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	Nevermind... [ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]</p>

12-13-2002, 05:23 PM	#153
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Oh this is ridiculous. I believe in God, that is what I say. By using the term "lie" that means I intend to deceive and I do not. It is simply my belief... hey if you want to think people are immoral for believing in God, Knock yourself out Biff... Okay, let's try this same logic on another subject. A nasty one, to get away from the glamour you associate with the God concept. I apologize in advance if it seems crude, I just want to remove it as far as possible. I don't know whether you have cancer or not. I don't have a clue about even how I would find out if you did had cancer. But if I follow your prescribed style logic I would have to only consider the fact that I didn't know that you don't have cancer. So I should, it follows, believe that you have cancer. I should testify that you have cancer. Surely you see how wrong that is. If I said such a thing about you it might have detrimental effects on you (much like the detrimental effects Atheists suffer from Theists). If I say that something is a fact when I don't know to be a fact then I am lying. Even if it turns out later to be a fact I would still be lying because I didn't know that when I said it. And that simply would not be moral. Were I to keep my big trap shut and not tell people that you had this cancer, that I haven't a clue about, but just quietly believed it--then I would be lying to myself. Not really immoral but not a very productive thing to do, actually it's pretty self-destructive. I tend to have respect others beliefs regardless of the fact I may not agree. You don't. to each his own... And it doesn't occur to you that all of those remarks you have made about me being close-minded and having my "own view of reality" contradicts your proud boast of the respect you have for others beliefs. Because you don't agree with what I'm saying you point blank refuse to consider it, are disrespectful to me for holding opinions that differ from yours and never realize that I am trying to help you.

12-13-2002, 05:51 PM	#155
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Belief in gods, magic/miracles, and "supernatural" is morally neutral. I do NOT agree. Such beliefs are evil, I think. I'll put a longer post in the Morals Forum later. Vorkosigan

12-13-2002, 07:00 PM	#156
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	I do not, to my knowledge... I'm glad. I do. much like the detrimental effects Atheists suffer from Theists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am sorry you feel this way, I really am... It's the way of the world. Christians tell you how wonderful and kind and loving they are�and then�bam! Wish your Nephew a Merry Christmas for me. He's learned it's true meaning far too early. If I say that something is a fact when I don't know to be a fact then I am lying. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please show me when I claimed anything to be a fact... I was explaining why I did things and what my moral standards were. I didn't mention you. If you can explain to me how you can say that something IS when you can't prove that it is, and justify that on the grounds that you can't say it isn't, and that is telling the truth�whew�I'd love to hear it. No Biff. Go back and reread your posts as well as mine. I respect you for not believing, you having an opinion different than mine is not the problem. I went back and reread what you had written before composing my last note. Other than adding "condescension" I stand by what I wrote. Have I called you a liar for believing what you do? Of course not, I wasn't lying and I was able to explain my reasoning. I don't believe just because I believe. have I said you were immoral? Why would you? I am not. However you did say those things. Yes. But you don't find me boasting that I have such respect for the beliefs of others. I do not. Some are ridiculous, some are very harmful (that poor nephew of yours, he'll carry this around for the rest of his life) and I'm not afraid to say so. But unlike Christians, Moslems, Hindus, etc.. the only "harmful" thing I use against these people is logic and reason. Sometimes it stings a bit, but then Second Corinthians 11:19 and all that. If you are trying to "help" me, I don't want help like that. I have nothing else to say to you Biff. You don't want help? I'm not surprised, you are very closed minded.

12-14-2002, 12:42 PM	#158
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Thank you, I'm on the mend and should be just fine. I might add that this is entirely due to science, no miracles were involved, just harded nosed skeptics dealing solely with facts.

12-14-2002, 04:54 PM	#159
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	There is an important difference between respecting a person and respecting the person's beliefs. I have many Christian and Muslim friends, and I respect them. On rare occasions we debate and it gets a tad heated. But we usually stop say "break, we are mates not enemies who disagree on God and religion." I have great respect for my christian friends and several christian family members. But I make no secret that I don't respect Christian Theology/Mythology/Superstition. They admit that they think Atheism is morally wrong and that I am going to Hell. They say that they don't want me to go to Hell, and wish it weren't so. Most of the wars of the last 1700 years have had religious overtones. But it wasn't religion that fueled the wars but people hating people who believed differently. We must avoid that trap. In future, I will make statements that Christians will find offencive. I will give an example. The 6 day creation myth is irrational and has been disproven by fossil and geological evidence. To believe in it, in my opinion is foolish. Original Sin, Inherited guilt, God's impregnation of a human girl to produce a god-man for blood sacrifice, and the resurrection are all barmy myths for which I have absolutely no respect. Now, that doesn't mean I hate Christians or Muslims. I only hope that they apply the same methodology to me as an Atheist. Fiach

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