Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CX · 01-15-2002, 07:56 PM

According to a Muslim apologetic I saw recently in the speech Jesus gives in GJn 14, his reference to the "spirit of truth" and a counselor in 14:16-17 refers to Mohammed. Now I think the case can be better made that AJn is making Jesus to give a prophecy of sorts about Paul, but that isn't really the issue. The thing that interests me is that the apologetic I read claims that "Spirit of Truth" is a redaction by NT translators that eliminates the original Greek title used Pargaleeta . It is further asserted that this mystery word which was deleted by translators is a Greek cognate for Mohammed which means "one whom people praise exceedingly." The sense of the word, then, is applicable to the word Muhammad in Arabic, since Muhammad means "the praised one." Now I've never heard of that word nor can I find it in any lexicon, but it could just be a weird transliteration (I'm presuming the author of the apologetic is a native speaker of Arabic) or I'm just unfamiliar with it, but I can find no evidence that the phrase in question is ever rendered in Greek other than PNEUMA THS ALHQEIAS (literally 'spirit of truth') or that this other mystery word appears in any manuscript. I've checked Westcott-Hort, the Byzantine/Majority text of 1991 and the Textus Receptus. Anyone know to what this apologist is referring? Am I correct that the traditional Xian interpretation of this passage is that it refers to Paul (I am outside the scope of my own knowledge with regard to GJn)?

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: CowboyX ]

I just dug around in my lexicon some more and I can't find anything with a root for "praise" that looks anything like the word above.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: CowboyX ]

Polycarp · 01-16-2002, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CowboyX:
According to a Muslim apologetic I saw recently in the speech Jesus gives in GJn 14, his reference to the "spirit of truth" and a counselor in 14:16-17 refers to Mohammed. Now I think the case can be better made that AJn is making Jesus to give a prophecy of sorts about Paul, but that isn't really the issue. The thing that interests me is that the apologetic I read claims that "Spirit of Truth" is a redaction by NT translators that eliminates the original Greek title used Pargaleeta . It is further asserted that this mystery word which was deleted by translators is a Greek cognate for Mohammed which means "one whom people praise exceedingly." The sense of the word, then, is applicable to the word Muhammad in Arabic, since Muhammad means "the praised one."

Cowboy X,

I�ve never heard anything from Muslims on a scribal redaction of John 14:16-17, but it wouldn�t surprise me. I�m a little unclear on exactly to which word you are referring. Are you saying this guy is arguing that �PARAKLETOS� is not the original word? The way I transliterated the word (PARAKLETOS) is better than �PARGALEETA�, which is how the Muslim apologist apparently gave the word. I assume the transliteration you cited was garbled because of exactly the reason you mentioned: a native Arabic speaker, or someone too ignorant to know any better. Most translations interpret this word into English as �counselor�, �comforter�, or something similar. It only appears in GJn and 1 John: John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, and 16:7, and 1 John 2:1. I can�t find anything remotely related to meaning �one who is praised� that is anything close to �PARGALEETA�. I have no idea where he�s coming from�

The traditional Christian interpretation of this passage has nothing to do with Paul. The �PARAKLETOS� is the Holy Spirit. John makes this explicit when he uses the same word in 14:26 and identifies it as a synonym for the Holy Spirit.

Does this help you or am I completely on the wrong track for your question?

lpetrich · 01-16-2002, 06:32 AM

That "prophecy" is too vague to be meaningful. There ought to be a detailed prediction, such as:

In western Arabia near the Red Sea 550 years from now, a prophet named Mochammados will live, and he will receive God's final revelation. He will teach that God is one and not three, that heaven is a place of great sensual delights, and that Jesus's crucifixion was performed on a phantom. His residences, the cities of Macca and Madina, will become holy cities; every good follower of his must face Macca when he prays and must assert that there is no god but God and that Mochammados is his prophet. And his followers will spread their religion, Islamas or Submission, by conquest over much of the world.

So how is it that we never see prophecies like that in the Bible? Could it be that its writers do not really have access to superior knowledge?

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]

CX · 01-16-2002, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Polycarp:
[b]

Cowboy X,

I�ve never heard anything from Muslims on a scribal redaction of John 14:16-17, but it wouldn�t surprise me. I�m a little unclear on exactly to which word you are referring. Are you saying this guy is arguing that �PARAKLETOS� is not the original word? The way I transliterated the word (PARAKLETOS) is better than �PARGALEETA�, which is how the Muslim apologist apparently gave the word. I assume the transliteration you cited was garbled because of exactly the reason you mentioned: a native Arabic speaker, or someone too ignorant to know any better. Most translations interpret this word into English as �counselor�, �comforter�, or something similar. It only appears in GJn and 1 John: John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, and 16:7, and 1 John 2:1. I can�t find anything remotely related to meaning �one who is praised� that is anything close to �PARGALEETA�. I have no idea where he�s coming from�

The traditional Christian interpretation of this passage has nothing to do with Paul. The �PARAKLETOS� is the Holy Spirit. John makes this explicit when he uses the same word in 14:26 and identifies it as a synonym for the Holy Spirit.

Does this help you or am I completely on the wrong track for your question?

Ah yes, PARAKLETOS why didn't I see that? I'm sure you're right. Given that this is also one of the hapax legomena of the Johannine text tradition I should have realized this was what he meant. Although if such is the case not only is his transliteration terrible, but his translation skills need some serious upgrading as well. I have only read GJn once or twice so I'm only familiar with the barest essentials of its christology etc. Thanks for the lesson.

-DM- · 01-16-2002, 10:36 AM

JN 14:16-17 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."

"helper" = parakletos = An intercessor, consoler, advocate, comforter.

---------

In my opinion, to propose that these verses refer to Muhammad is yet another example of an attempt to make Islam fit whatever "facts" it can be made to fit -- after the fact. There are literally hundreds of examples of this sort of endeavor on various Islamic websites. There is also an example in the Feedback forum in the topic <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001807" target="_blank">Koran</a>.

The Christian interpretation that these verses refer to the so-called Holy Spirit is a better fit given that Muhammad, like Jesus, has come and gone.

--Don--

Apikorus · 01-16-2002, 10:49 AM

It is amusing and deliciously ironic, though, to watch Christians emphatically deny Muslim claims that Mohammed is prefigured in the New Testament. They are of course perfectly correct - the New Testament was written hundreds of years before Mohammed was born. However, by the same token, the books of the Hebrew Bible were written hundreds of years before the time of Jesus, and it is equally absurd to think that Jesus is prefigured therein.

Toto · 01-16-2002, 11:09 AM

I found this <a href="http://gnfcw.org/parakletos.htm" target="_blank">Christian comment on the Paraklete argument</a> and <a href="http://debate.org.uk/topics/trtracts/t04.htm" target="_blank">this one.</a> The latter states:

Quote:

All the misunderstanding which separates Jews, Christians and Muslims comes from the manner in which one pronounces or writes parakletos, which the translators of the gospel have rendered as 'counsellor.' Must we read it parakletos or periklytos?"

Muslims, aware that the original New Testament was written in Greek, choose the latter spelling, periklytos, which translates as 'glorious', over parakletos which means 'counsellor', or 'lawyer'. On the strength of the Qur'anic text (Sura 61:6) Muslims then claim that John 14:16 and 16:7 are predictions of the coming of Muhammad, and that the word periklytos (glorious), refers to Ahmad, a form of the name Muhammed, both meaning "the Praised one".

What some Muslims have tried to do with this word is replace the vowels as they see fit (replacing the a-a-e-o in parakletos with e-i-y-o in periklytos). In Hebrew and in Arabic, where the vowels are not included in the words, there is room for debate as to which vowels the author intended. However this is not so in Greek, as all vowels are clearly written in all Greek texts.

The Muslim view is <a href="http://media.isnet.org/antar/Edip/Q18.html" target="_blank">here.</a>

Haran · 01-16-2002, 06:00 PM

A very good website that I have found on this topic is called: <a href="http://www.truthnet.org/islam/source.htm" target="_blank">Sources of Islam</a>

Look specifically at chapter 4, section 5 for the Paraklete/Periclete discussion which is very interesting.

To make a long story short, this mistake seems to have come about because the Muslims mistook Paraklete ("comforter") for Periclete ("praised or celebrated"). This understandable mistake is great for Islam because "the promised one" is then "the praised one". Ahmed, or Mohammad, means "the praised one". Therein lies their mistaken prophecy...

The Qur'an is filled with many other interesting things as this website shows.

My particular favorites are the similarities between the Protoevangelium of James and the Infancy Gospel of Thomas (not the same as the infamous Gospel of Thomas). I, myself, stumbled upon the parallel between the IGoT and the Qur'an when after having read IGoT, I noticed the story in the Qur'an of Jesus forming doves from clay. So I dug deeper... The Qur'an is filled with references to Christian apocryphal literature, most of which circulated in that particular region.

My own personal opinion is that the Qur'an is the creation/reaction of Mohammad who was upset with the corrupt Christians and Jews living around him at the time...

Haran

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]

Toto · 01-16-2002, 08:01 PM

Haran - if no one has welcomed to the boards yet, welcome.

The "Sources of Islam" that you reference appears to be a book written 100 years ago by a Christian missionary. I would hope that there is more recent material, although I have read that critical scholarship of Islam has been hampered by the possibility of a fatwa against anyone who challenges the Islamic worldview the way critical scholarship has challenged the Christian worldview.

It would also increase the credibility of the work if the "Truthnet" site did not list Josh McDowell as their main reference for Christianity, and did not list every creationist site on the web as authorities on evolution.

But I guess you have to take what you can get.

Haran · 01-17-2002, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
Haran - if no one has welcomed to the boards yet, welcome.

Thank you.

Quote:

The "Sources of Islam" that you reference appears to be a book written 100 years ago by a Christian missionary.

Truth stands the tests of time...

Actually, after reading a little more of the background for this book, I have to say that it is more of a polemical work than I first thought. However, many of the points that it puts forward are still valid, especially in reference to the apocryphal Christian sources that I mentioned.

The website I posted presents the Qur'anic verses and their parallels. It's hard not to see the resemblance. I believe that Muslims argue that the Qur'an was written before these, but that is unrealistic. <a href="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/" target="_blank">Peter Kirby's website</a> gives dates for the IGoT and PoJ as 140 - 170 A.D. The only conclusion, in my opinion, is that these are some of the sources of the Qur'an.

Quote:

I would hope that there is more recent material, although I have read that critical scholarship of Islam has been hampered by the possibility of a fatwa against anyone who challenges the Islamic worldview the way critical scholarship has challenged the Christian worldview.

I'm sure that there is more up to date material, but I am not familiar with it. I have read a few histories of Islam and Mohammed, but I haven't found many books on textual criticism of the Qur'an, very likely due to the reasons you mention.

Quote:

It would also increase the credibility of the work if the "Truthnet" site did not list Josh McDowell as their main reference for Christianity, and did not list every creationist site on the web as authorities on evolution.

Frankly, I wasn't concerned with the provider. Only the content. "Sources of Islam" can actually be found in several different places on the internet. Several Muslim websites also address this book, though I think there arguments on the above are severely lacking.

Haran

01-15-2002, 07:56 PM	#1
CX Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portlandish Posts: 2,829	Does GJn foretell the coming of Mohammed? According to a Muslim apologetic I saw recently in the speech Jesus gives in GJn 14, his reference to the "spirit of truth" and a counselor in 14:16-17 refers to Mohammed. Now I think the case can be better made that AJn is making Jesus to give a prophecy of sorts about Paul, but that isn't really the issue. The thing that interests me is that the apologetic I read claims that "Spirit of Truth" is a redaction by NT translators that eliminates the original Greek title used Pargaleeta . It is further asserted that this mystery word which was deleted by translators is a Greek cognate for Mohammed which means "one whom people praise exceedingly." The sense of the word, then, is applicable to the word Muhammad in Arabic, since Muhammad means "the praised one." Now I've never heard of that word nor can I find it in any lexicon, but it could just be a weird transliteration (I'm presuming the author of the apologetic is a native speaker of Arabic) or I'm just unfamiliar with it, but I can find no evidence that the phrase in question is ever rendered in Greek other than PNEUMA THS ALHQEIAS (literally 'spirit of truth') or that this other mystery word appears in any manuscript. I've checked Westcott-Hort, the Byzantine/Majority text of 1991 and the Textus Receptus. Anyone know to what this apologist is referring? Am I correct that the traditional Xian interpretation of this passage is that it refers to Paul (I am outside the scope of my own knowledge with regard to GJn)? [ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: CowboyX ] I just dug around in my lexicon some more and I can't find anything with a root for "praise" that looks anything like the word above. [ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: CowboyX ]</p>

01-16-2002, 06:32 AM	#3
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	That "prophecy" is too vague to be meaningful. There ought to be a detailed prediction, such as: In western Arabia near the Red Sea 550 years from now, a prophet named Mochammados will live, and he will receive God's final revelation. He will teach that God is one and not three, that heaven is a place of great sensual delights, and that Jesus's crucifixion was performed on a phantom. His residences, the cities of Macca and Madina, will become holy cities; every good follower of his must face Macca when he prays and must assert that there is no god but God and that Mochammados is his prophet. And his followers will spread their religion, Islamas or Submission, by conquest over much of the world. So how is it that we never see prophecies like that in the Bible? Could it be that its writers do not really have access to superior knowledge? [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

01-16-2002, 06:00 PM	#8
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	A very good website that I have found on this topic is called: <a href="http://www.truthnet.org/islam/source.htm" target="_blank">Sources of Islam</a> Look specifically at chapter 4, section 5 for the Paraklete/Periclete discussion which is very interesting. To make a long story short, this mistake seems to have come about because the Muslims mistook Paraklete ("comforter") for Periclete ("praised or celebrated"). This understandable mistake is great for Islam because "the promised one" is then "the praised one". Ahmed, or Mohammad, means "the praised one". Therein lies their mistaken prophecy... The Qur'an is filled with many other interesting things as this website shows. My particular favorites are the similarities between the Protoevangelium of James and the Infancy Gospel of Thomas (not the same as the infamous Gospel of Thomas). I, myself, stumbled upon the parallel between the IGoT and the Qur'an when after having read IGoT, I noticed the story in the Qur'an of Jesus forming doves from clay. So I dug deeper... The Qur'an is filled with references to Christian apocryphal literature, most of which circulated in that particular region. My own personal opinion is that the Qur'an is the creation/reaction of Mohammad who was upset with the corrupt Christians and Jews living around him at the time... Haran [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]</p>

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01-16-2002, 10:36 AM	#5
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	JN 14:16-17 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." "helper" = parakletos = An intercessor, consoler, advocate, comforter. --------- In my opinion, to propose that these verses refer to Muhammad is yet another example of an attempt to make Islam fit whatever "facts" it can be made to fit -- after the fact. There are literally hundreds of examples of this sort of endeavor on various Islamic websites. There is also an example in the Feedback forum in the topic <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001807" target="_blank">Koran</a>. The Christian interpretation that these verses refer to the so-called Holy Spirit is a better fit given that Muhammad, like Jesus, has come and gone. --Don--

01-16-2002, 10:49 AM	#6
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	It is amusing and deliciously ironic, though, to watch Christians emphatically deny Muslim claims that Mohammed is prefigured in the New Testament. They are of course perfectly correct - the New Testament was written hundreds of years before Mohammed was born. However, by the same token, the books of the Hebrew Bible were written hundreds of years before the time of Jesus, and it is equally absurd to think that Jesus is prefigured therein.

01-16-2002, 08:01 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Haran - if no one has welcomed to the boards yet, welcome. The "Sources of Islam" that you reference appears to be a book written 100 years ago by a Christian missionary. I would hope that there is more recent material, although I have read that critical scholarship of Islam has been hampered by the possibility of a fatwa against anyone who challenges the Islamic worldview the way critical scholarship has challenged the Christian worldview. It would also increase the credibility of the work if the "Truthnet" site did not list Josh McDowell as their main reference for Christianity, and did not list every creationist site on the web as authorities on evolution. But I guess you have to take what you can get.

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