Darwin's Finch

Heathen Dawn: "Buddhism is a cruel religion."

Care to expand on that?

B34RZ0R

"Buddhism is a cruel religion"

WHAT!

I am an atheist, but prior to calling myself this I studied Buddhism for a few years. I will preface by saying that I studied the Mahayana school/teachings, centered on the benifit of all sentient beings.. Um show me where any other religion or religious sub-teaching carries such a message, remember that is for ALL sentient beings! I don't believe in the story of Sidharthas conception... or the story of Shantideva taking flight into the clouds. Though I still hold that Sidhartha/Buddha did have some very purposeful teachings that can apply to any Atheists life as well as a Buddhists. I disagree that it is a cruel religion. Christianity .. now that is a cruel religion!
Be Well
*Bear*

muon

While I don't really agree with HD's statement, let me suggest a manner in which Buddhism could be construed as "cruel".

A central aspect of Buddhism is the idea that attachments create suffering, and that to take pleasure from the senses will only bind you more tightly to those attachments and suffering. The end result of this thinking is often a world-denying asceticism that rejects art, food, friendship, music, love, and almost any other source of pleasure as a potential ensnarement to be avoided at all cost. Imagine trying to live your life without these things, and you can conceive how Buddhism could be considered "cruel".

Now, this is a one-sided view, and in the Buddhist scheme of things this attitude might be rational. But one does have to wonder if the process of trying to reduce attachments by avoiding worldly pleasure winds up creating more suffering than it prevents. Or put another way, would you give up all pleasure in exchange for never feeling pain?

B34RZ0R

I fully agree with osers statement.. but when a statement such as the one above see "cruel religion" is given without any other "explinations" for a better word I had to voice my opinion. I spent much time with our resident Lama and he was a joyful & thoughtful teacher. I think most people Buddhists included realize that the idea of giving up ALL worldly pleasures is more for the Monk than the layperson.. I would not give up my "attachments" to never feel pain.. I feel that can't happen life = expieriencing pain, attachments or not. I also state here that part of the reason that I decided to not take any initiations or such was that I am a musician and painter! I do not see these "attachments" as detrimental to myself and others... and if Buddhism was the only "true" way and creating art and music were my worst deeds I at least hope I would be reborn as something nice
Be Well
*Bear*

monkey mind

Renouncement is not something that can be done institutionally, it is a personal choice made over a period of time. The question of whether it makes you feel better or worse is something you can only answer yourself by trying it.

I think it's important to point out that Buddhists tend to train themselves to renounce, rather than force the outside world to conform. An example is that in Buddhist countries women can wear whatever they like, even though the clergy is strictly celibate and the religion teaches sexual modesty.

Certainly, if the world of run by an evil Buddhist dictator, and he deemed that no one is allowed to enjoy any worldy pleasure, well, that would be cruel =)

Seraphim

By gsx1138 :

"It was strange though; after I left I had this perma grin for about two days. "

My reply : Found something funny? Never happened to me before.

"I did find it disconcerting that after an hour of meditating (two 30 min. intervals) I was only able to clear my mind of random thoughts for about 2 breaths. As soon as I realized I had done it the thoughts came flooding back. I guess it will be harder for the MTV generation like me to filter all of the crap out."

My reply : You been thinking all your life, not something you can just switch on and off like that.

I remember my first meditation and it was worse than your experiment. It was right after one of my martial arts practise conducted by a Japanese Sensei. He asked us to lie on the grass, spread out arms out and breath in and out according to his counting.
About 5 minutes through the procedure, I felt like I dropped INTO the earth and left my body on the surface. I still had my eyes close, but I could feel I went down about 7 feet under (and I wasn't even dead yet). More I struggle, deeper I went till I stopped struggling all together and just float. It was like floating in water, weightless and carefree.

By Waning Moon Conrad :
"In the Tibetan styles at least, the idea is not to block your thoughts and practice a state of blankness but to watch them without involving yourself too much with them and maintaining awareness. Some have described it as watching the watcher. "

My reply : In layman's term - don't accept the thoughts, and don't block it, just allow it to past through you like you stand in the middle of a river and water (your thoughts) passing all around you. The minute you think about something, you will get hooked at those thoughts.

lunachick

The Dalai Llama is the only spiritual leader I have any respect for.

I used to meditate every day for quite a few years. I have one of those monkey minds that dart about everywhere, and when I meditated I found myself to be calmer; more centred. But it does take practise.

You've inspired me to begin the practise again. (I think the last time I meditated was about 10 years ago!)

Seraphim

by oser :

"A central aspect of Buddhism is the idea that attachments create suffering, and that to take pleasure from the senses will only bind you more tightly to those attachments and suffering. The end result of this thinking is often a world-denying asceticism that rejects art, food, friendship, music, love, and almost any other source of pleasure as a potential ensnarement to be avoided at all cost. Imagine trying to live your life without these things, and you can conceive how Buddhism could be considered "cruel"."

By reply : 1st lesson Buddha learnt (according to stories I read) is that meditation and soul-seeking practise is like practising your sita (Indian gitar-like instructment), too tight - string may break and too loose - sound not proper.

In a person's life, he can't go around living with strictness or care-free style all the time, he must set his own pace. So even so all this you mentioned above is an attachment, forcing a person to give all will cause even more severe problem to the mind and body than the one that person facing through attachment.

"Now, this is a one-sided view, and in the Buddhist scheme of things this attitude might be rational. But one does have to wonder if the process of trying to reduce attachments by avoiding worldly pleasure winds up creating more suffering than it prevents. Or put another way, would you give up all pleasure in exchange for never feeling pain? "

My reply : Pain always exist no matter what you give or lose. Only thing is, you can reduce the pain by losing unnecessary things such as high-risk life style and too much money.

By Monkey Mind :

"I think it's important to point out that Buddhists tend to train themselves to renounce, rather than force the outside world to conform. An example is that in Buddhist countries women can wear whatever they like, even though the clergy is strictly celibate and the religion teaches sexual modesty."

My reply : Buddhism don't see woman or booze or money as source of any evil, instead all evil comes from within ourselves. Forcing oneself to renounce something without us ready for it will make attachment for it even worse. You stop having sex doesn't mean your body will stop producing hormones.

"Certainly, if the world of run by an evil Buddhist dictator, and he deemed that no one is allowed to enjoy any worldy pleasure, well, that would be cruel "

My reply : Buddhist dictator? That will be a new one.

Seraphim

"You've inspired me to begin the practise again. (I think the last time I meditated was about 10 years ago!) "

My question : Who inspired you? Dalai Lama? I never actually read any of his books though ... 18 years knowing about Buddhism and I have no information on who Dalai Lama is.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Seraphim ]</p>

Answerer

Well, Seraphim, I'm curious to your definition of 'soul' here, I hope you are not refering to permanent 'ego' or 'self-existence'.