Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 04-25-2003, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
I'm glad to see specifics spelled out because it makes for a useful discussion. Nevertheless, it's the old "A good God would have zapped them" argument. I've already ponted out that, taken to it's logical implication, this argument requires God to be a policeman waith 10,000 arms or some kind of zap guns reaching all over the world and solving every problem we choose to create.

But as I pointed out earlier, Christians tell us that's precisely what God is going to eventually do, in his/her/its own good time. So why not do it right now?

Quote:

Yes, he could do that, but you see, it does not achieve his goal, which is a kingdom of willing servants he can trust implicitly.

So you're saying that God is not capable of creating a kingdom of willing servants, poof, out of thin air? I thought that's what the angels were supposed to be... oops, I guess it turned out God couldn't trust those darn angels after all. Was that a mistake on God's part, or was it intentional? Were humans God's second attempt, after messing up the first time? (I guess what I'm not getting is why God needs servants in the first place, willing or otherwise.)

Radorth · 04-25-2003, 09:38 AM

Quote:

If God can EVER intervene in human affairs to save or rescue someone from harm without interfering with Free Will, why can he not ALWAYS choose to intervene to stop such things such as rape, murder, child abuse, and torture?

Would that include abortion?

Rad

christ-on-a-stick · 04-25-2003, 09:41 AM

Sure. If abortion is the great evil that Xians think it is (and that they believe God sees it as), I think it would send a very strong message to nonXians (or Xians trying to get an abortion anyway) if God consistently prevented them from doing so. Showing his will and all.

Why doesn't he do that?

fatherphil · 04-25-2003, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake
You know, what's scary is that I'm sure there are folks out there that believe this. :banghead:

you're talking about the muslims, right?

Radorth · 04-25-2003, 09:48 AM

Quote:

But as I pointed out earlier, Christians tell us that's [9]precisely[/i] what God is going to eventually do, in his/her/its own good time. So why not do it right now?

What? And put a stop to abortion? You'd scream like a gut-shot banshee, no?

I suspect you don't want Bush intervening to prevent the other listed crimes, in which case I question whether you care much about rape and murder in Iraq. I bet you had a fit when the museums were ravaged while the Marines were busy taking out the other bad guys.

I don't suppose God telling Bush to take out the bad guys in Iraq, or cracking down on terrorists in the U.S at the expense of civil rights would count, would it?

Take your choice bub.

Rad

christ-on-a-stick · 04-25-2003, 09:50 AM

Quote:

I don't suppose God telling Bush to take out the bad guys in Iraq, or cracking down on terrorists in the U.S at the expense of civil rights would count, would it?

Hmmm... it might count if *everyone else* heard God telling Bush the same thing, and that God wasn't telling lots of other people the opposite (according to them), etc. etc....

Rhea · 04-25-2003, 09:52 AM

Quote:

I'm glad to see specifics spelled out because it makes for a useful discussion.

Really? Why do you continue to ignore others, then?

Radorth · 04-25-2003, 09:53 AM

Here comes the qualifiers...

"Well OK, but only if I agree with it, God speaks to me personally, and we talk about it and agree on everything first."

We've been here before.

Rad

christ-on-a-stick · 04-25-2003, 09:54 AM

Not at all.

Wouldn't God be capable of speaking to *everyone* personally, at the same time, same message, maybe even audio-recordable? Why not?

fishbulb · 04-25-2003, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fatherphil
i think where we end up, heaven or hell, is determined by God on our own day of judgement when we stand before Him. He knows our heart and will judge accordingly based on that. our actions on earth may be evidence of what's in our hearts but are not all that He will use to base His judgement on. frankly i'm hoping for much mercy upon us all. one thing i think He values is a humble heart, stand proud before Him and it may not bode well. but then our pride may not be so resilient before something so awesome that defies comprehension.

just my take. whadya think?

I think that it sounds like you believe things are going to be exactly the way you would choose to have them be. That's very convenient, considering that experience shows us that things rarely work out precisely (or even very close to) the way we would choose to have them happen. Learning to be happy with what we've got is far more typical of the human experience than getting exactly what we hope for.

There's an old adage that says that one ought to be most skeptical of those things he wants to be true, as it is on these matters that he is most susceptible to wishful thinking, confirmation bias, and self-deception.

The interesting question is not what you believe, but why.

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04-25-2003, 09:41 AM	#43
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Sure. If abortion is the great evil that Xians think it is (and that they believe God sees it as), I think it would send a very strong message to nonXians (or Xians trying to get an abortion anyway) if God consistently prevented them from doing so. Showing his will and all. Why doesn't he do that?

04-25-2003, 09:53 AM	#48
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	Here comes the qualifiers... "Well OK, but only if I agree with it, God speaks to me personally, and we talk about it and agree on everything first." We've been here before. Rad

04-25-2003, 09:54 AM	#49
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Not at all. Wouldn't God be capable of speaking to everyone personally, at the same time, same message, maybe even audio-recordable? Why not?

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