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Old 05-29-2003, 12:21 PM   #11
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Originally posted by Rushianbeing
And Biff...I don't remember that episode, but I do remember the one where Elaine gets mad because Putty isn't concerned enough that she's going to burn in hell for all of eternity. Elaine understands where I'm coming from!
It was the episode where Jerry & George try to sell the defunked Jerry pilot to Japanese TV and Kramer has 3 Japanese tourists staying in his apartment sleeping in his dresser draws that he got from Elaine's boy friend of the week, a famous furniture designer. Jerry has to chop them out with an axe because Kramers hot tub warpped the dresser and hits the boyfriend in the head.

Hmmm, maybe I should go to a Southern Baptist service and watch a little less TV.
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:30 PM   #12
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I believe another reason there is so little evangelism in churches today is that most Christians have no idea why they believe what they believe, other than the fact they were brought up that way.
I would guess that another reason is that most Christians are brought up to have a pretty decent set of manners. Evangelism is just out and out impolite so they are loath to lower themselves to such rude behavior.
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:31 PM   #13
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I had similar experiences with jews but that was more of an outsider "never can be like us" thing I think. A good friend is 1/2 jewish (actually SB dad and jewish mom) and they're kind of assholes to him too.

Funny thing about those SBs, they know how to spot a shlep and go after them with a vengance. I think it's not really about souls but tidings. If you look like you're down and out, vulnerable or just lonely they are on you like stink on organic waste material.

I have found from a few of my own experiences that they HATE rejection - so if they saw you as a strong independant minded person they will often avoid you like the plague. Show some weakness and they're in for the kill.

My sister used to work for Hilton in reservation and convention planning. Guess whose convention they feared booking the most? Why the Southern Baptists, of course.

More booze bought, porno movies (and demands for porno movie reversal charges) and stolen towels, bed sheets, and stuff happened that week than any other conference Hilton hosted nationwide.

The only thing worse than the SB's were spring breakers.
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:34 PM   #14
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Oh yeah, Biff, I remember now!! What a great show...

Pyrrho, I see your point, but I don't think I'm being unreasonably hard on them, because the ingredients of every sermon I've ever heard there have been "go out and preach the gospel to every one you meet; don't just live by example, don't keep your joy to yourself, EVANGELIZE out loud using your proud Christian voice!". They are very, very, very clearly demanding of themselves and everyone in the room that they do this thing, yet they are very, very very clearly not doing it. That's it in black and white, I don't think there's a good rationalization for this...it's just plain old blatant hypocrisy.
I tend to agree with Spacedout's explanation, that most xians today have no idea why they believe what they believe. Or what they believe period-I don't think these particular people have a coherent set of beliefs. And, perhaps as a consequence of that, they're afraid if they start evangelizing me and I ask questions, they won't be able to answer them satisfactorily and they'd get upset. I think they just don't want a confrontation-they'd rather stay comfortable, and talk trash about people behind their backs when they leave rather than honestly try to have conversations with them (my friend has tales of horror all the time of the gossips in her church-in fact, she seems to dislike everyone there so much that I'm honestly not sure why she's even going in the first place!!).

Finally, Brighid, I have a pentagram tattooed on my right shoulderblade (more correctly, it's the man-in-the-star from the Rush cover art), so I can take your advice any time if I so wish!! (I've kept it under wraps at this church in the past, for my friend's sake.)
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:40 PM   #15
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Originally posted by Hubble head
[Funny thing about those SBs, they know how to spot a shlep and go after them with a vengance. I think it's not really about souls but tidings. If you look like you're down and out, vulnerable or just lonely they are on you like stink on organic waste material.

You nailed it, I think that's precisely what happened to my best friend. I had moved to Wyoming and was not as emotionally available to her as I had been, and we had never been apart practically our whole lives. She had just given birth and was a single mother (had been dumped by the father as soon as he found out she was pregnant), and before I knew it, this normally strong-willed, strong-minded independent woman was an SB.

"My sister used to work for Hilton in reservation and convention planning. Guess whose convention they feared booking the most? Why the Southern Baptists, of course.

More booze bought, porno movies (and demands for porno movie reversal charges) and stolen towels, bed sheets, and stuff happened that week than any other conference Hilton hosted nationwide.

The only thing worse than the SB's were spring breakers. [/B]
Awesome!! Lots of doing unto others going on, eh?? >
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:40 PM   #16
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Originally posted by spacedOut
Here's my take:

I believe that most people belonging to a Christian church are there for the social and support aspects. They know that evangelism is a key theme in Christianity, but they also realize that actually doing it is much more difficult than just talking about it. That's one reason why sponsoring missionaries is so big. Congregations will go to great effort and expense to set up a children's home in South America, but never even think about getting involved in a local child advocacy group. It's much easier to write a check on Sunday than it is to really get your hands dirty.

I believe another reason there is so little evangelism in churches today is that most Christians have no idea why they believe what they believe, other than the fact they were brought up that way. Talking to a stranger is hard enough. Trying to convince that stranger that he/she is eternally lost and needs an ancient, invisible "saviour" is a little more than most people want to take on. It's much more comfortable to hang with people that have the same supernatural beliefs as you.

I had a similar experience with a Southern Baptist preacher a few months ago. I attended a church that was holding a series of lessons dealing with Christian Evidences. There wasn't much to the series as the preacher obviously pulled heavily from the Josh McDowell material. Anyway, after each lesson I e-mailed the pastor thanking him for the lesson and requesting clarification on the issues that I felt he sort of glossed over. He responded to the first couple of e-mails promising to get back with me, but that was all I heard from him.

It would seem that I would have been the perfect target for an evangelistic pastor. I was gracious and polite and was genuinely searching for the truth. However, the pastor apparently thought it too much trouble to deal with someone who had intellectual questions regarding the Christian faith. Granted, I'm sure it was much easier for him to minister to his own "flock" of like-minded believers, but the experience just enforced my belief that most Christians today are not serious about evangelism.
Although I agree with you when you say that many people are not up for converting others, I disagree with your conclusion. With your interaction with the pastor, you probably showed that you were absolutely NOT the perfect target, contrary to what you claim. By asking certain kinds of questions, you are doing exactly what you are not supposed to do. Your questions probably showed a certain kind of skepticism, and that is judged to be very bad. One is supposed to have faith, and you were probably not doing your part on this.

Let me illustrate this with a couple of examples. If you ask: "What do I have to do to get into heaven?” that is a "good" question, and shows the right kind of interest. But if you ask: "What evidence is there for any of this stuff?" and "Why should I believe anything you say?" these are generally the wrong kinds of questions to ask. The person who asks the first question is more likely to be "ready" for "salvation", but the person who asks the latter questions is probably not "ready" for "salvation". (Of course, a lot depends on the context of the questions, so particular cases may vary from my general description.)

So, some people are ready to be saved and others are not. It is unreasonable to expect people to waste their time on those who are not ready.

Furthermore, by asking certain kinds of questions, you may be showing that you are really a tool of the devil, trying to cast doubt upon the sacred word of god. If so, you need to be kept away from the flock so that you do not tempt them to the fires of hell.


The reason that you and Rushianbeing seem to regard them as being hypocritical about these things is that you are not really looking at it from their perspective. They cannot save everyone, so there will always be individuals who will remain outside the flock. You have been corrupted by Satan, and therefore, unless God in his mercy decides to win you over, you will be forever lost.
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:44 PM   #17
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Originally posted by brighid
Damn!! I guess it's just the Catholic left in me ... what about at the Baptismal? Would that work? She could asked to be baptized and come in that outfit, with dry ice in hand ... now that would be funny! However, in Tenessee I would worry about the rednecks in the congregation having a loaded gun in the back of their pick up and shooting her in the parking lot screaming,"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live!"

It's just not something I would do in my neighborhood, but it would be fun to do that in someone elses!

Brighid
Typically, the Baptismal is behind the pulpit, or off to the side, and you would never get into it dressed that way. They would tell you to come back dressed more appropriately. And if you did do it, only dressed as one would normally expect, you may be right to be concerned about what would happen if you did such a thing. I think it would depend on the particular church and the particular things that you did. I would not recommend it as an actual thing to do.
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:44 PM   #18
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Rushianbeing, when they pray and sing do you go along or fake it?

Whenver I go to church for weddings or funerals, I hold my head up as high as I can with my eyes wide open during prayer -usually to look for others doing the same or sing "liar liar" in my head as the fool on the podium rambles on. I once caught rolling eyes from a friend I never knew was non theist at a funeral when the minister went into the "castle's in the sky" bit.

An atheist on another board chewed me out when I posted that and told me I was being disrespectful. Can't imagine why.
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:45 PM   #19
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Finally, Brighid, I have a pentagram tattooed on my right shoulderblade (more correctly, it's the man-in-the-star from the Rush cover art), so I can take your advice any time if I so wish!! (I've kept it under wraps at this church in the past, for my friend's sake.)
COOL!! Yeah, it probably wouldn't be too good for her if they knew her friend had a tatoo of that sort!

Brighid
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Old 05-29-2003, 12:46 PM   #20
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Pyhrro-So they'll only talk to people if they know the outcome will be "positive"? That's a pretty shady attitude. Seems real easy for them to make excuses for not practicing what they preach-when god is ready for them to evangelize someone, he'll present them with an easy target. I'm sure you're right, this is exactly how they rationalize their inaction. Total silliness and cowardice, IMO. Haven't they ever heard "if it's worthwhile it's worth working for", or something like that?

This is all very interesting...
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