anthony93

Thank you.


Yes, but

Marcion and the Valentinians both revered Paul, maybe more than the pre-reformation orthodox church? But if Paul was quoting from a non-canonical source, I wonder what? Most of the Gnostic material that survives is after Paul no matter haw long he lived (assuming the 50-70 AD range of the undisputed letters is accurate), he would have been dead by 120 AD. Maybe some proto-gnostic writing? Those pesky Colossians maybe?

Thanks for the reply

andrewcriddle

he relationship between what follows in Romans 3 'no one understands no one seeks for God All have turned aside together they have gone wrong no one does good not even one.'

And what follows in Psalms 13/14 'The Lord looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there were any that understood or sought after God They are all gone out of the way they are together become good for nothing there is none that does good no not one'

Seems to show that Psalm 13/14 is the basis for Paul's quotation.

I agree it is a paraphrase not a strict quotation (or possibly a divergent Greek or Hebrew text used by Paul.)

Andrew Criddle

darstec

I don't think all the Pauline epistles are from that time range. Certainly not the pseudoPauline ones, and who knows what interpolations.

At best some passages might date from the traditional acceptance. But look at the problem with the Corinthian epistles alone. Some scholars maintain that parts of II are in I, and also parts of an unknown III. Likewise II contains parts of I and possibly of a III. Who knows what might have been in III. Paul certainly suggests having written previous letters. What might have been eliminated from I and II? Likewise, it seems some passages in other epistles might have been interjected from others and do not logically flow in thought.

Wasn't there a recent thread on just when Corinth became a thriving metropolis after having been in a downslide? I think this might indicate a much later date to Paul's letters, or at least to some passages in them.

Proto-gnostic certainly might be an avenue worth exploring. But I still think the answer lies in non scriptural references. But then wasn't that where proto-gnostic ideas came from? Or for that matter, Christianity as a whole?

andrewcriddle

This was about Corinth having been more or less deserted for most of the 1st century BCE.

The context was about the possibility or impossibility of an earlier (1st century BCE) date for Paul. Not about a later date. Corinth was thriving from the 20's BCE onwards.

Andrew Criddle

darstec

I think Psalms refers specifically to Israel and not to the whole world at large whereas Paul means all of mankind.

The problem with assuming Paul quoted a Greek translation is that there is no evidence that Psalms had been translated into Greek during his lifetime (or at least not the Septuagint). This would mean that IF he had used a Greek translation it could not have been the Septuagint. And if it was the Septuagint, one would have to push Romans a lot further into the future than is traditionally accepted. Personally, and it is only an opinion though it mght be shared by others, I think many of the Pauline epistles are later than tradition would place them. Most certainly interpolated parts of them are. I think this passage is one of them.

To my knowledge, the DDS have no Greek Psalms in them so that is a dead end. Unless there is a reservoir somewhere of other Greek versions of Psalms.

For Hebrew, certainly the Masoretic Text uses different words. Perhaps Spin could weigh in on any alternate translations found in the DDS on Psalms 13/14:1. {I lent out what I have on them to family members and you know how that goes. Lost too many good books by lending.} Perhaps in there we might find a Hebrew word better translated into the Greek δικαιος.

I'm still opting for secular material as Paul's source.

darstec

I have a problem with that, and actually all early dating of Paul. It is commonly considered that Paul remarked upon the sinfulness of Corinth, mistakenly taken as homosexuality particularly among Fundamentalists, but actually of idolatrous prostitution. T. Price mentions that takes the form of idolatry to Aphrodite particularly at the Temple of Aphrodite in Corinth. In fact, one of the Greek verbs for fornicate was korinthiazomai.

But that temple was not fully built/re-built until possibly the end of Nero's reign. That was hardly enough time for the worship of Aphrodite to get into full swing. T. Price thinks Paul was referring to time much earlier, several centuries in fact, before Corinth was destroyed. It seems unlikely then that would be a problem in Paul's time. If it was then Paul was writing later than tradition holds. {Or we are back to a second century BCE proposition.}

andrewcriddle

Philo of Alexandria certainly knew the Psalms, almost certainly in a Greek translation.

Andrew Criddle

darstec

Yet the earliest fragment of the Greek version of any of the Psalms dates to the second century CE. If he did use some Greek version it is certainly lost to us.

Philo's commentary on Psalms is quite secular and less "churchified" than is the Septuagint or Christian Psalms. And it is more paraphrase than translation.

If he used Greek, and the question is not a settled one, it wasn't the Septuagint, and it no longer exists. It is still quite possible he used a Hebrew version.

It would be nice to have a copy of his writings that could be searched.

bleubird

I use Matt.6:5-6 in my debates with xians.



bleu

anthony93

Yes, the dating of the epistles is problematic at best. Even so, the hints at the existance of a community before Paul raise interesting though probably unresolvable questions. For example:
Romans: 16 : 7 Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.
which seems to indicate that not only were the 'house churches' before Paul's conversion but that individuals existed that 'ranked' him. Odd considering the Jerusalem church doesn't seem to have left much of a pre-Pauline mark on the Greek churches (considering how Hellenized the theology had become by the time Constantine legalized Christianity). Of course the later dating might explain a lot but there must have been writing ( like letters to Paul and between others) that haven't survived.
The million dollar question. But was Gnosticism a product of Christianity or a forerunner (and influence)? The Qumran find seems to demonstrate a wider range of sectarianism in Pre-70 Judaism than the Pharisees v. Sadducees portrayed in the NT (whether the Qumranites they were Josephus' Essenes or not ) and I wonder what was going on in the diaspora before that time.

Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing which sources (aside from the obvious, like Plato ) others think would be worth considering.

Thanks