Freethought & Rationalism Archive

penguinfan · 11-15-2008, 03:17 PM

According to this article is not even biblical. According to the author, original sin is an Augustinian concept based on a bad translation of the Latin Vulgate. When Luther, an Augustinian monk, rolled the clock back on Christian practice and belief, argued the case for Original sin, apparently only went back to 5th century Christianity.

The Greek, apparently, does not support Augustine's belief of Original Sin. Moreover, there are other passages in the New Testament that contradict original sin and Church Fathers before Augustine did not hold such a concept themselves.

For anyone who can read Greek and/or has a good handle of Christian theology, what is your opinion of this author? Do you agree with his interpretation? As a layman and as someone who always bitterly opposed the idea of OS, I can tell you that I am certainly hopeful that this scholar's view holds true.

http://www.douglasjacoby.org/view_article.php?ID=2654

Toto · 11-15-2008, 06:25 PM

I sympathize with your opposition to the idea of original sin. But it seems that the idea of Jesus as an atoning sacrifice requires some sort of sinful state to make sense.

Original Sin, an overview notes:

Quote:

The words "Original Sin" don't exist in the Bible or Jewish writings. The "fall" of Adam was an interpretation formed sometime after the Exile and return of the Jews to Judea. This is the heart of Christian theology as taught by Paul. Jesus was some kind of human/deity sacrifice to make up for the alleged "sin" of Adam where mankind became mortal as punishment for Adam. Quoting Paul,

Rom. 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

Rom. 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"

1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

No amount of hype or theological double-talk changes the fact this whole concept is immoral and unjust.

There is a remarkably humanistic view of original sin on the BBC site. In regard to Augustine, it notes here

Quote:

Augustine developed the following argument:

the whole essence of human nature was contained in Adam, the first man
when Adam disobeyed God, the whole of human nature disobeyed God
thus the whole of human nature became sinful
thus the whole human race was damaged for all time.

Nothing remains but to conclude that in the first man all are understood to have sinned, because all were in him when he sinned; whereby sin is brought in with birth and not removed save by the new birth...it is manifest that in Adam all sinned, so to speak, en masse. By that sin we became a corrupt mass.
Augustine

Bible scholars think that this element of Augustine's theory was partly based on a mistranslation in the Latin version of the Bible. However, Augustine does not base his entire argument only on that particular text, and his theory is not wrecked by this error.

judge · 11-15-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguinfan

According to this article is not even biblical. According to the author, original sin is an Augustinian concept based on a bad translation of the Latin Vulgate. When Luther, an Augustinian monk, rolled the clock back on Christian practice and belief, argued the case for Original sin, apparently only went back to 5th century Christianity.

I am not a huge fan of Elaine Pagels but I thought her book Adam Eve and the Serpent (or via: amazon.co.uk) was very good.
It has a discussion re: the battle between Augustine and Julian which might be enlightening WRT your post.

Check it out if you come across a copy

storytime · 11-15-2008, 09:29 PM

How do Christians explain OS after God destroyed everything that had breadth within it via the flood? No people were left on earth, (except Noah and his family), which means no sin remained. And Noah was counted as righteous, without sin. How is OS passed on through all men?

The next condemnation came about with Noah's grandson/step son, who was cursed with a curse because Ham saw his fathers nakedness. (fornication? The son shall not have his fathers wife?) The curse involved servitude, slavery to Shem, Ham and Japheth. And so God always hated the Canaanites.

Roger Pearse · 11-17-2008, 08:02 AM

Original sin is what we use to explain why people brought up with every advantage and education still grow up to be dog-thieves, insurance salesmen, and Democrats.

:-)

Chili · 11-17-2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguinfan

According to this article is not even biblical. According to the author, original sin is an Augustinian concept based on a bad translation of the Latin Vulgate. When Luther, an Augustinian monk, rolled the clock back on Christian practice and belief, argued the case for Original sin, apparently only went back to 5th century Christianity.

The Greek, apparently, does not support Augustine's belief of Original Sin. Moreover, there are other passages in the New Testament that contradict original sin and Church Fathers before Augustine did not hold such a concept themselves.

For anyone who can read Greek and/or has a good handle of Christian theology, what is your opinion of this author? Do you agree with his interpretation? As a layman and as someone who always bitterly opposed the idea of OS, I can tell you that I am certainly hopeful that this scholar's view holds true.

http://www.douglasjacoby.org/view_article.php?ID=2654

I think original sin is good in that it gives us the capacity to distinguish between good and bad (evil is not oppositie to good). It allows us to think for ourself and the concept 'evil' was not introduced until the Law was given to Moses towards the conviction of sin, which only means that we can only stand convicted by sin if we accept the 'fruit' as bad . . . for nothing that is created is bad in itself but will have a purpose of it's own for being the way it is. For example, a rotten apple is good for it's own purpose just as stealing is good for it's own purpose . . . which is not to say that rotten apples are good for me nor that stealing is good for me.

I guess from here it is your decision if you want to help the pope carry his cross or not (now where are those smilies when I need one).

11-15-2008, 03:17 PM	#1
penguinfan Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: DeKalb, Illinois Posts: 27	The idea of original sin According to this article is not even biblical. According to the author, original sin is an Augustinian concept based on a bad translation of the Latin Vulgate. When Luther, an Augustinian monk, rolled the clock back on Christian practice and belief, argued the case for Original sin, apparently only went back to 5th century Christianity. The Greek, apparently, does not support Augustine's belief of Original Sin. Moreover, there are other passages in the New Testament that contradict original sin and Church Fathers before Augustine did not hold such a concept themselves. For anyone who can read Greek and/or has a good handle of Christian theology, what is your opinion of this author? Do you agree with his interpretation? As a layman and as someone who always bitterly opposed the idea of OS, I can tell you that I am certainly hopeful that this scholar's view holds true. http://www.douglasjacoby.org/view_article.php?ID=2654

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11-15-2008, 09:29 PM	#4
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	How do Christians explain OS after God destroyed everything that had breadth within it via the flood? No people were left on earth, (except Noah and his family), which means no sin remained. And Noah was counted as righteous, without sin. How is OS passed on through all men? The next condemnation came about with Noah's grandson/step son, who was cursed with a curse because Ham saw his fathers nakedness. (fornication? The son shall not have his fathers wife?) The curse involved servitude, slavery to Shem, Ham and Japheth. And so God always hated the Canaanites.

11-17-2008, 08:02 AM	#5
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Original sin is what we use to explain why people brought up with every advantage and education still grow up to be dog-thieves, insurance salesmen, and Democrats. :-)

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