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02-01-2010, 09:08 AM | #11 | ||
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02-01-2010, 09:13 AM | #12 |
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This is a problem for anyone that starts to investigate Marcion. The fact is that we do not have any evidence from the defense and must solely rely on trying to extract his ideas from the prosecution. Such an exercise, though fun, still leaves us guessing.
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02-01-2010, 09:30 AM | #13 | |
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Perhaps the prosecution, in their haste to have Marcion done away with - let slip a true tale or two - looks to me the prosecution did protest too much.... Actually, bottom line is that it does not really matter whether the idea of a non-Jewish Jesus was Marcion's idea or it was not. The fact remains that the issue, the question, the debate, the heresy, that was being railed against by Tertullian included the idea of a non-Jewish Jesus. And the fact that this heresy appeared so very early in christian history, should, at the very least, give mythicists pause for some serious thought... |
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02-01-2010, 11:17 AM | #14 | ||||
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aa5874, at this point I'm not really that concerned whether Marcion 'mutilated' the gospel of Luke or not - I am interested in the charge against him - that he did not accept the 'orthodox' Jesus position that Jesus was predicted by the prophets. Marcion's Jesus was a non-Jewish Jesus ie a Jesus that was not a fulfillment of OT prophecy. So whether Tertullian was wrong on lots of things is besides the point - on this issue - with collaboration from Justin Martyr - Tertullian does seem to have got a handle on what Marcion believed about 'his' Jesus - ie a non-Jewish Jesus. Quote:
So, then, do we not have here a christian community that had a Jesus storyline that involved a Jesus that was not a product of OT prophecy and Jewish genealogy? |
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02-01-2010, 12:08 PM | #15 | |
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02-01-2010, 12:43 PM | #16 | ||
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Do you see what I mean? |
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02-01-2010, 01:06 PM | #17 |
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According to R. Joseph Hoffmann, Marcion thought that the Jewish Scriptures were true, and that since Jesus as described in the gospels did not literally fit the definition of a Jewish Messiah, that was that. Marcion's Jesus was the son of the greater god, not the lesser god (the demiurge, identified with YHWH) who made this imperfect world.
Marcion's opponents had a way of creatively reading the Jewish Scriptures to find what they wanted to, but Marcion rejected this. |
02-01-2010, 01:12 PM | #18 | |
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Lots of good observations in your post. Thanks.
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How are your Old Testament polytheism chops? Are you familiar with the notion that the God in the Old Testament is actually a conflation between Yahweh and the gods of the Canaanite pantheon? This hypothesis asserts that the original god of Israel was a bull-god called El, and that Yahweh was considered a separate deity. - But that over time these two gods were combined to create one monotheistic god. It involves a divine family and all kinds of ‘Sons of God’. I can’t help but wonder if Marcion’s theology is based on that knowledge, or at least based on some naïve screwed up misconstruction related to it. He wouldn’t have to invent a new god with a new son, he would only have to read the OT with a different slant. |
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02-01-2010, 01:20 PM | #19 | |||
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02-01-2010, 01:28 PM | #20 | ||
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