Loomis

Right. I’m glad you see what I mean.

In other words …

Was the Most High Jesus’ father?

Or was the Most High Jesus’ grandfather?

There are plenty of opportunities for disagreement – and since it’s all bullshit there is no correct answer and absolutely no reason to try to reconcile it. But it’s a breeding ground for diversity.

So maybe that explains Marcion.

Loomis

I’m new to Marcion. That’s why I’m posting in this thread. I’d like to learn something new. But as I understand it info about Marcion is scarce.

Can someone show me something solid that supports the notion that Marcion set up his own god (presumably a different god not belonging to the Old Testament) who was able to have a son?

Show me.

Someone prove that Marcion’s god can’t be traced back to the OT. I have and open mind. I’m all ears.

maryhelena

http://earlychristianwritings.com/te...stapology.html

(my formatting)

Loomis

Thanks. I’ve read that.

Have you considered the possibility that Martyr’s claim that Marcion’s belief in “some other god greater than the Creator” might be rooted the the belief that Yahweh was subordinate to El?

(Btw, I’m not suggesting they any of them ever heard of those names.)

What if Martr thought that Jesus was Kurios (Yahweh), and that Theos (El) was the Father?

Isn't that how Paul described it?

Paul often links Jesus with Kurios; but never with Theos. Paul pretended that Jesus was Kurios. Paul claimed, “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord (Kurios) will be saved.”

Maybe Marcion understood that Theos, Kurios, and Jesus were all separate characters (El, Yahweh, Joshua). In that case Theos would be the god greater than the Creator from the Paul / Martr perspective.

Loomis

Let me try one more time:

In a manner of speaking it pivots on the issue of if Jesus was Yahweh or if Jesus was Joshua. Because if Jesus was Yahweh (both called Kurios) then Theos would be the Creator and there would be no greater god. But if Jesus was Joshua then there would be two gods above him. And that is the crux of the disagreement.

Does that make any sense?

aa5874

It is of most vital importance and extremely critical to know if the writings about Marcion under the name Tertullian is credible and historical in nature.

You must realise that the writer using the name Tertullian may not have had any handle on what Marcion believed but may have simply read "First Apology'.

You must admit that the writer called Tertullian wrote that he was critiquing an anonymous writing and assumed it was Marcion's.

How can you be sure that the writer called Tertullian had a handle on who wrote the anonymous writing when he did not have a clue who wrote the Gospels or gave erroneous information about the names of the authors?

(my formatting...)

But, I am trying to tell you that there were probably tens of thousands of Christians that did not believe in a Jewish Jesus or a Jewish Christ since the days of the Emperor Claudius, since circa 41 -54 CE based on Justin Martyr.

Non-Jewish Gods, and sons and daughters of non-Jewish Gods were woshiped by people called Christians, Simon Magus being one of them.

Now look at "Dialogue with Trypho" XXXV

It may have been more unusual for Christians to worship a Jewish Jesus as a God. Based on Justin virtually all the Christians in Samaria worshiped Simon since around 41-54 CE probably before the name Jesus called Christ was fabricated.

And the Christians who were followers of Valentinius did not worship Jewish Gods or their sons and daughters.

storytime

With an open mind and lots of speculation, consider that there were many "Christs" that people followed "the signs of his coming", in the stars. How many groups or sects existed as followers of "the Christ" [sign] in the constallations? Before the days of Jesus, did non Jews follow astrological "signs" of "the Christ" who was supposed to come? Why think this astrological charting of the stars existed only in the Jewish tradition? In the NT story itself, Jesus warns his disciples of the many "Christs" who would come in his name. Jesus thought himself the only one his disciples should trust and follow. But if there were other non Jewish "Christs" in the astrological "star" gazers, then Marcion could have easily denied Jesus his claim to fame.

So it is with Paul also, as Paul warns of cursing to any who preach another gospel than what he had preached and that his hearer's had heard from him. It seems that other people and not the Jews only, believed in a "Christ" [sign] that they followed. These Paul preached against in the city of Antioch where there already existed followers of "Christ", the sign or signal in the stars. Where did this "Christ" sign/signal originate? Egypt? Asia?

Among all the other existing "Christ" followers throughout the middle east and at Antioch, Paul also established his sect or cult named "Christians" at Antioch. Antioch was the place to be for imaginative thinking, it seems. His was one among the many. Marcion may have realized there were others and whom he thought more legit than the Jewish Christ.

aa5874

Well, not according to Justin Martyr, Marcion did not leave Creation to the Jewish God at all.

Please look at "First Apology" it seems pretty clear to me that Justin wrote that Marcion was DENYING that the Jewish God or Justin's God was the Creator of heaven and earth.

This is a writer using the name Justin Martyr with the claim that Marcion DENIED that God was the Creator of heaven and earth in "First Apology" LVIII.

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...stapology.html

Justin's God did not create things in heaven and earth, it was the other God of Marcion with his other son.

maryhelena

No, sorry, theological ideas are bizarre anyway - so - whatever...:huh:

The important issue is not that, perhaps, Marcion got his idea of a non-Jewish Jesus from some deep theological thought about how the OT god could not produce a son - such deep thoughts, in and themselves, could be a waste of time, nothing more than a flight of fancy - unless Marcion was dealing with an issue, gabbling with an issue that required him to re-think such fundamentals of Jewish monotheism. And what could that issue be - well, a non-Jewish Jesus - or more correctly, a non-Jewish historical core to the gospel Jesus storyline.

If the baptism account in Mark's gospel is read - not as some embarrassing forgiveness of sins idea - but as being related to an adoption process - rebirth - then the gospel of Mark seems to realize that such a spiritual re-birth was necessary to accommodate a non-Jewish historical figure as a spiritual son, an adopted son, of that OT monotheistic god..

And of course - once a non-Jewish historical core lies behind the gospel Jesus storyline - a non-Jewish historical figure as an adopted 'son of god' - then is not the way now open to bring along the Gentiles as well??

Loomis

You can trace the star watching stuff from Canaanite mythology on to passages in the Old Testament and then on to passages in the New Testament.

Begin with Isaiah 14:12-14.

Look how you have fallen from the sky,
Helel son of Shahar!
You have been cut down to the ground,
To weaken the nations!
You said to yourself,
“I will climb up to the sky.
Above the stars of El,
I will set up my throne.
I will rule on the mountain of assembly
on the remote slopes of Zaphon.
I will climb up to the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High!”

That passage is rich in Canaanite imagery. It mentions Shahar (a son of El) and the stars of El - who were also divinities, and it says that the Most High god controls from above the clouds.

Now look at how that imagery is carried over in Daniel 7:13-14.

And upon the clouds of the heavens
one like a son of man was approaching.
He went up to the Ancient of Days
and was escorted before him.
To him was given ruling authority, honor, and sovereignty.
All peoples, nations, and language groups were serving him.
His authority is eternal and will not pass away.
His kingdom will not be destroyed.

The Ancient of Days and the Most High are both epithets for El. Both passages describe an environment where lesser gods (Helel in Isaiah, and Baal/Yahweh in Daniel) take the keys to the kingdom. In Isaiah Helel gets them, whereas in Daniel Ball/Yahweh gets them.

These passages are related. They both draw from the Baal Epic where Baal is presumed dead and Anat convinces the father god El to let a midget god named Ashtar rule from Baal’s throne. Unfortunately Ashtar is to short to mount the throne and so he is ousted – and just in the nick of time Baal (the rider of the clouds) returns from the dead to take his seat on the throne that El rightfully gave him after he conquered Yam. Helel is an epithet for Ashtar. They are the same midget god. I’m not kidding.

Now that I have established a link between the Stars of El and the Son of Man lets take a look at Job 1:6.

Now the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh ….

And Job 38:7

… when the morning stars sang in together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy …

These are the same divinities. They are the sons of God. They are the sons of El. They are the stars of El; and they are the morning stars.

Now fast-forward to the New Testament and look at 2 Peter 1:19

We have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Bingo. There’s a morning star. We have a morning star.

Now the icing on the cake (Revelation 22:16).

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

See?

Jesus said that he was a morning star. He was identifying himself with the group of divinities who sang together in Job 38:7. They were sons of God, and so was Jesus.

My point is that you don’t need an external source (astrology) to explain the fascination with the stars. All you need is an Old Testament and an understanding of Canaanite mythology.

It’s all ‘Jewish’.