Madkins007

Let's take this step by step.

Behemoth is mentioned in Job 40 ONLY. The word in Hebrew is derived from 'B@hemah', meaning "beast, cattle, animal, livestock (of domestic animals)." THIS word is used many times in the Bible, usually as 'cattle'! I am not a Hebrew scholar but one article said that the difference between the words indicate that 'Behemoth' means 'THE b@hemah', probably a single indivisual 'king' b@hemah'.

Now- the description:
15 "Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox.
- Does not exclude much, but wouod be an odd description of an elephant, sauropod, or even a hippo.

16 "Behold now, his strength in his loins And his power in the muscles of his belly.
- An important point to make here is that it is a form of poetry to have two balances phrases- they should be considered as working together to make an illustration. In this case, it is that this is a powerful animal.

17 "He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together.
- Here is the famous 'dino' bit- the tail. Yet, it just says that the tail moves like a stiff tree- as opposed to the more fluid tail of a horse, etc. This and V.18 also allude to an animal that would feel very solid- strong, tight, lean muscles- no hint of flabbiness or flappy tissue (a strike against hippos and elephants)

18 "His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are like bars of iron.

19 "He is the first of the ways of God; Let his maker bring near his sword.

20 "Surely the mountains bring him food, And all the beasts of the field play there.

21 "Under the lotus plants he lies down, In the covert of the reeds and the marsh.
22 "The lotus plants cover him with shade; The willows of the brook surround him.
- These two verses give us some important behavior clues- it likes to rest in shallow water during the day. This does not describe hippos, elephants, rhinos, or even the guesses of behavior for sauropods, but fits water buffalo to a T.

23 "If a river rages, he is not alarmed; He is confident, though the Jordan rushes to his mouth.
- This is a BIG, strong, and confident animal- and again with a major water descriptor.

24 "Can anyone capture him when he is on watch, With barbs can anyone pierce {his} nose?
- Piercing the nose is something you do with bulls and semi-domestic water buffalo.

Best guess- this is a large speciman of the locally semi-domesticated water buffalo (probably a rogue or fully wild animal), or possibly an aurach or other extinct relative of the water buffalo.

(By the way- doing an analysis of the Leviathan makes it likely that it is a large croc. The 'smoke' bit could refer to the interesting point that big croc bellows include an ultrasonic aspect that can make water on their back vibrate to a mist. The 'fire' bit is probably hyperbole or idiom.)

Celsus

I disagree. It's because this type of topic keeps getting sent to E/C where people assume Behemoth has some real counterpart, that we never get to the bottom of it. See here on Leviathan (a seven headed serpent/dragon). Behemoth was a primordial creature in Jewish writings, as can be seen in 2 Esdras 6:49-52 where Behemoth and Leviathan are given portions of the earth to inhabit because the waters of the earth could not fit them both.

Joel

mrmoderate

That's a lot of assumptions madkins. Don't get me wrong, that could be just as accurate as anything else but I just don't see it that way.

"feeds on grass like an ox" indicates this is not an ox or anything resembling an ox.

"What strength in his loins and what power in his belly (KJV: force is in the naval of his belly)". What buffalo is known for strength in it's stomach? Is the stomach of a buffalo even really noticed? Would the belly not have to be phenomenally profound to be noted like this?

"tail sways like a cedar"? This is not your collies tail folks. This is a tail that is noticeably different enough to make mention of. Of all of the trees that could be mentioned to note a "stiff" tail why reference one of the most awesome trees of the region? No, this is a magnificently large tail and powerful tail.

"sinews of his thighs (KJV: stones) are close-knit" This thing has impressively tightly muscled thighs or testicles depending on your rendering. Either way, we are again impressed with something massive.

"tubes of bronze and rods of iron" again denoting massive strength.

"ranks first (KJV: chief) amongst the works of God." The Hebrew word that has been translated as "first" (NIV) or "chief" (KJV) is actually an oddly used word. The Hebrew word Strongs ref. Hebrew 7725, is [i]shuwb[/] pronounced "shoob" and means to turn back or to retreat. Also used to describe doing something "again". In it's root sense this word does not really seem to fit this sentence. So....could this be one of God's "first" creatures? Maybe a creature long since extinct? Could this be one of God's "chief", most important, creatures? Largest creatures? Once more it is clear that whatever the particulars, this creature is impressive even to God.

"The hills bring him his produce and the wild animals play nearby" It is a vegetarian and not on the menu of other animals.

So far I have created a vision of what I would think is most likely an Apatosaurus (and Brontosaurus is not really wrong, it was just a duplicated name for the Apatosaurus when it was thought they were two distint animals.) type of dinosaur. This is what I am inclined to believe this creature that God is describing is.

For making a case for this being an elephant;

The Hebrew word that has been translated as "tail" is actually an adverb meaning a thing that "sways". This could be a word used in a less wordy time to describe the trunk of an elephant.

What I do not see is an elephant hanging around in flood waters. Elephants are a bit skittish about natural changes whereas a more aquatic animal would fit this description.
My vote goes for a vegetarian dinosaur.

Writer@Large

Meh. What possible purpose could identifying it with a real animal serve? The only possible good is to counter a YEC claim that the OT discusses dinosaurs, but frankly, that's a petty evidence even for them. If that's the best evidence they can provide, I say let them have it; there are a lot of more important things to challenge them on.

[EDIT TO ADD: Further, doesn't it just add legitimacy to the dinosaur claim to go "no, it's describing this other critter!" Call it a myth and be done with it.]

--W@L

SEF

Perhaps it is important to identify it because it is going to be served up at the banquet at the end of the world. Imagine the embarrassment of not knowing the correct cutlery to use or which wine to drink with it:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Behemoth

River

Now the real question is

Whats a Leviathan?

Is it a kronosaur ?




---River

Coragyps

Pah! I clear my nose in the general direction of the Free Dictionary.com and their shabby etymology! Any true etymologist, or even entomologist, can immediately tell you that Behemoth is a slight shortening of Behemothra, the unnatural offspring of the hideously twisted and evil union of the Japanese movie star Mothra with the Intelligent Design poster boy Michael Behe. No wonder the Old Testament viewed it with awe!

Sandslice

Hilarious; but let's try to stick to the reality. I actually find it rather interesting that Free Dictionary mentions Bahamut... but the main problem here is that Bahamut was a sea monster in a "world pillar" scheme that included Kujara the bull, a ruby mountain, and Atlas (as an angel.)

-To why Behemoth should be identified: Just an attempt to understand what our more imaginative predecessors thoughts about *insert name of critter.* Though it does seem consistent with the water buffalo... after further thought, I'm starting to lean more toward the idea that this thing is a chimeric metaphor... really beefy "stones," cedar-like tail, and could swallow floods. Beautiful description of pure power, carefully crafted from respected attributes of many known and existing creatures, and wrapped in the name Behemoth. A fitting testament to the power of the Ugars' god.

-As for Leviathan: Kronosaurs would be a lot better argument than tyrannosaurs, at the very least... I won't mess with now, though.

Madkins007

MrModerate-


I know we are both assuming things, and are unlikely to come to a consensus, and that is OK with me, but I'd like to touch on a few points if I may.

We are both assuming it discusses a real animal (and there does not seem to be any real reason to assume otherwise), and one that Job would seem to be familiar with (or why would God have told him to 'Behold' him, which I interpret as 'think about this'.

There are far too many points touching on cattle and water for me to ignore and concede that a dino may be the key animal here.

I really cannot see an Apatosaurus or similar dino eating grass like an ox when most scientists believe that theur teeth were probably made for browsing on twigs and such.

I think that the 'cedar tree' analogy gets pushed too far if you use it for the SIZE of the tail. Again, looking at the poetic coupling of the two lines 'tail like a cedar/sinews knit together' it seems pretty obvious (but certainly not guaranteed) that the reference of the cedar is stiffness and 'cohesiveness' if you will, a certain tauntness of the tissues.

The 'Complete Jewish Bible' renders Job 40:19 this way- ""He ranks first among God's works. Only his maker can approach him with his sword." This would seem to indicate that 'first' is a position of power, not chronology.

You also did not touch on the nose peircing thing- this is pretty much ONLY ever mentioned (by anyone, not just the Bible) in connection with livestock, especially cattle. Why even mention it in reference to a dino or elephant- surely a term like rope, harness, cage, pen. or something similar would have been used for a dino, elephant, hippo, etc.

As for the elephant, I can't see it when things are taken as a whole. Again, elephants do not graze like an ox, they are also browsers. They don't spend most of their day in the shallows, and the slackness of the skin would argue against the overall 'tightness' of the descriptions given. Powerful, yes, but not 'tight'. (Generally, I think I would classify rhinos, gaur, buffalos (not bison), wild hogs, etc. as 'tight'. Hippos and elephants would not be.)

Madkins007

Job 41 seems to me to be describing a large croc pretty accurately, with the exception of the fire/sparks from the mouth and some hyperbole.