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Old 08-05-2008, 09:22 AM   #1
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Default Are these the same people?

Mark 6.3:
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Jude and Simon? Are not his sisters here with us?
Mark 15.40:
There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the lesser and Joses, and Salome.
Mark 15.47:
Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses were looking on to see where he was laid.
Mark 16.1 (see Luke 24.10):
When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might come and anoint him.
Jude [1.]1:
Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, to those who are the called, beloved in God the father, and kept for Jesus Christ.
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Old 08-05-2008, 10:21 AM   #2
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Mark 6.3:
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Jude and Simon? Are not his sisters here with us?
Mark 15.40:
There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the lesser and Joses, and Salome.
Mark 15.47:
Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses were looking on to see where he was laid.
Mark 16.1 (see Luke 24.10):
When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might come and anoint him.
Jude [1.]1:
Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, to those who are the called, beloved in God the father, and kept for Jesus Christ.
Ben.
These passages actually reveal what the author of Mark wanted the readers to do. He wanted the readers , it would appear, to claim that Mary is the mother of Jesus without the author himself having said so.

And it would appear the author of gMark was successful, he seemed to have gotten the authors of Matthew and Luke to invent birth stories about Mary being the mother of Jesus with a brother James.


Mary and James are introduced for the first time in gMark in the form of what can be called a "leading question." Is this not the son of Mary......the brother of James...?

At the place of crucifixion, the author again did not say Mary the mother of Jesus whose brother was Joses, he OMITTED the words mother of Jesus.

Again, at the tomb, the words mother of Jesus are not to be found, it is now Mary, the mother of James.

So, in the entire Gospel of Mark, there is only one leading question asking if Mary is the mother and James is the brother of Jesus and the author never really answered his own question when he had two opportunities to do so.

Jesus is being crucified and instead of the author clearly saying that Mary the mother of Jesus was present, he said Mary the mother of Joses looked on.

Jesus is dead and buried and instead of the author saying clearly that Mary the mother of Jesus went to see his body, the author wrote Mary the mother of James went to visit the body of Jesus.

This appears to be highly unusual, the author never explicitly and directly claimed Mary was the mother of Jesus.

The author of Mark appear to have no idea about the famiily of Jesus and expected the readers to use their imagination. The authors of Matthew and Luke appear to have used their imagination.

Based, on Mark, then, the characters Mary, James and Jesus are unknown by the author.
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Old 08-05-2008, 10:35 AM   #3
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Why would Jude identify himself as a brother of James and a servant of Jesus Christ if he were a literal brother of Jesus Christ?

It seems to me that this is all speculation. In the absense of extra-Biblical evidence, how could you know if these names are meant to refer to the same people or not? Are all of the Marys the same person? All of the James? (the brother and the disciple?)
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Old 08-05-2008, 10:56 AM   #4
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Why would Jude identify himself as a brother of James and a servant of Jesus Christ if he were a literal brother of Jesus Christ?
Maybe not in a Sunday School understanding of affairs, but, if James were the one for whom heaven and earth came into existence (Thomas 12), yes, why not?

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It seems to me that this is all speculation.
What is speculation? My question?

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In the absense of extra-Biblical evidence, how could you know if these names are meant to refer to the same people or not?
That is my question.

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Are all of the Marys the same person? All of the James? (the brother and the disciple?)
Probably not, but my question still presses. Which are the same and which are not?

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Old 08-05-2008, 11:04 AM   #5
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By speculation, I mean that there is no evidence. Your imagination is filling in the details.

I don't understand this:
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Maybe not in a Sunday School understanding of affairs, but, if James were the one for whom heaven and earth came into existence (Thomas 12), yes, why not?
So Jude has two famous brothers, but only identifies himself as the brother of one of them? Did Jude know that James was the one for whom heaven and earth came into existence?
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:07 AM   #6
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By speculation, I mean that there is no evidence. Your imagination is filling in the details.
Again, what on earth are you talking about? I asked a question, and I am not at all sure what the answer is. Where is my imagination filling in details? What details did I offer?

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I don't understand this:
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Maybe not in a Sunday School understanding of affairs, but, if James were the one for whom heaven and earth came into existence (Thomas 12), yes, why not?
So Jude has two famous brothers, but only identifies himself as the brother of one of them?
Yes.

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Did Jude know that James was the one for whom heaven and earth came into existence?
I am wondering that myself.

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Old 08-05-2008, 11:17 AM   #7
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I think that the idea that James the pillar of the Jerusalem church is James the brother of Jesus has the same evidence behind it as the idea that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife. I don't see enough substance to even discuss this.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:26 AM   #8
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Why would Jude identify himself as a brother of James and a servant of Jesus Christ if he were a literal brother of Jesus Christ?
It always helps to do what many (most) here never seem to do -- i.e., look in critical commentaries.

Here for instance, in the remarks of C. Bigg, A critical and exegetical commentary on the Epistles of St. Peter and St. Jude (Edinburgh: T&T Clark International. 1901) 323, is not only an answer to your question, but a notation that it is not something new:
Quote:
Five personages of the name of Jude occur in apostolic or sub-apostolic times. (1) Judas Iscariot. (2) The Apostle Ἰούδας Ἰακώβου, Luke 6:16; Acts 1:13; John 14:22; this “son of James” is commonly identified with Lebbaeus or Thaddaeus. (3) Judas, the Lord’s brother, brother also of James, Matt. 13:55; Mark 6:3, where he is named last or last but one. (4) Judas Barsabbas, Acts 15:22–33. (5) Judas, the last Jewish bishop of Jerusalem in the time of Hadrian, Eus. H.E. iv. 5. 3.

The author of our Epistle gives two descriptions of himself —(1)Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ δοῦλος: (2)ἀδελφὸς δε Ἰσκώβου. The first does not mean that he was an apostle (see note on 2 Pet. 1:1), and ver. 17 is generally understood to mean that he did not so regard himself. His brother James also was not an apostle. The second identifies our Jude with the brother of the Lord.

But why does he not call himself the brother of the Lord? Clement of Alexandria in his commentary, which still exists in a Latin version, answered the question thus—“Judas, qui catholicam scripsit epistolam, frater filiorum Joseph exstans ualde religiosus et cum sciret propinquitatem domini, non tamen dicit se ipsum fratrem eius esse, sed quid dixit? Judas seruus Jesu Christi utpote domini, frater autem Jacobi.” Zahn (Einleitung, ii. p. 84) adopts this explanation, which is probably correct. The sense is, “Jude, the slave, I dare not say the brother, of Jesus Christ, but certainly the brother of James.”
And here -- in the comments of R. Bauckham on Jude 1:1 from his Word commentary on 1 & 2 Peter & Jude -- you'll see that the question certainly hasn't been neglected in NT studies.

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1. Ἰούδας. The name was common among Jews of the first century. The following identifications of this Judas (traditionally known in English as Jude) have been made:

(1) The overwhelming majority of scholars have understood this Judas to be Judas the brother of Jesus, who is mentioned in Matt 13:55; Mark 6:3; and Hegesippus (ap. Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 3.19.1–20.6), though they are divided on whether Jude himself wrote the letter or a later writer wrote under his name. This view seems to give the best explanation of the two phrases by which Jude is described in v 1: “a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James.” The brothers of the Lord were not known as “apostles” in the early Church, and so Jude’s authority to address his readers is expressed by the term “servant” rather than “apostle” (see below). The second phrase, which distinguishes this Judas from others of the same name, does so by mentioning his relationship to the only man in the primitive church who could be called simply “James” with no risk of ambiguity (see below). The only difficulty in this view is to understand why Jude is not here called “brother of the Lord” or “brother of Jesus Christ.” It is easier to explain this if the letter is authentic than if it is pseudepigraphal. Palestinian Jewish-Christian circles in the early church used the title “brother of the Lord” not simply to identify the brothers, but as ascribing to them an authoritative status, and therefore the brothers themselves, not wishing to claim an authority based on mere blood-relationship to Jesus, avoided the term (see below).

(2) Some older commentators (e.g. Calvin, Matthew Henry) identified the author as the apostle “Judas of James” (Luke 6:16; Acts 1:13: Ἰούδας Ἰακώβου). But (a) “Judas of James” naturally means “Judas son of James” rather than “Judas brother of James” (the latter translation, found in av, derives from the assumption that this apostle is the same person as Judas the Lord’s brother); (b)Jude does not call himself “apostle.”

(3) H. Koester (“ΓΝΩΜΑΙ ΔΙΑΦΟΡΟΙ,” HTR 58 [1965] 297) suggested that Jude is the apostle Thomas, who in Syrian Christian tradition was known as Judas Thomas or Judas “the twin” (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 1.13.11; Acts Thom.; Gos. Thom.; Thom. Cont. John 14:22 syc). Since Thomas is almost certainly not a personal name but a surname meaning “the twin,” the apostle must have had another name and it is possible that tradition has correctly preserved it as Judas. But this does not mean, as Koester thinks, that Judas “the twin” was the twin brother of Jesus and therefore identical with Judas the Lord’s brother. It is true that later tradition interpreted the surname “the twin” as meaning Jesus’ twin (Acts Thom. 31; 39; Thom. Cont. 138:4–8), but the idea was usually not that he was a blood-brother of Jesus but that he bore a close physical resemblance to Jesus (A. F. J. Klijn, “John xiv 22 and the Name Judas Thomas,” in Studies in John: presented to Professor Dr J. N. Sevenster [NovTSup 24; Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1970] 88–96) or that he was a kind of spiritual twin (cf. J. J. Gunther, “The Meaning and Origin of the Name ‘Judas Thomas,’ ” Mus 93 [1980] 113–148). Only at a late stage was Judas Thomas, Jesus’ “twin,” confused with Judas the blood-brother of Jesus.
This suggestion therefore cannot explain “brother of James,” and encounters the same difficulty as (2) in explaining why Jude does not call himself “apostle.”

Sidebottom (69, 79) adopted the same suggestion in arguing that Jude is a pseudonymous work of the early second century directed against gnostic heresy. Against the objection that Judas the Lord’s brother was too obscure a figure to be used as a pseudonym, Sidebottom points out that Judas Thomas was an important figure in gnostic literature (Gos. Thom.; Thom. Cont.). This argument, however, rests, like Koester’s, on the mistaken assumption that Judas Thomas was identified with Judas the Lord’s brother. Second-century Gnostics would not have recognized Judas Thomas under the description “Judas … brother of James.”

(4) Several scholars (Selwyn, Christian Prophets, 148; du Plessis, “Authorship,” developing an earlier argument by W. J. Fournier; Ellis, “Jude”; and cf. Plumptre, 85–86) have identified the author with Judas Barsabbas (Acts 15:22, 27, 32). But this Judas might be expected to distinguish himself from others of the same name by using his surname Barsabbas, rather than “brother of James,” even if this can be taken to refer to spiritual fraternity (du Plessis, “Authorship,” 197; for Ellis’s interpretation of “brother” here, see below).

(5) B. H. Streeter (The Primitive Church [London: Macmillan, 1929] 178–80) thought Jude was written by the third bishop of Jerusalem, whom the Apostolic Constitutions 7:46 called “Judas of James,” and that “brother” is a later addition to the text of Jude 1. This enabled him to date the letter in the early second century without regarding it as pseudonymous. Much earlier, Grotius had thought the author was Judas, the last Jewish bishop of Jerusalem according to Eusebius (Hist. Eccl. 4.5.3) (see Chase, DB(H) 2, 804 n.), who was perhaps the same man. These suggestions would be at all plausible only if the evidence for so late a date for Jude were compelling, but even then it would be hard to understand how the work of such an author could have come to be widely regarded as authoritative throughout the church by the end of the second century.

(6) Moffatt (244–46) thought the author was probably an otherwise unknown Judas, brother of an equally unknown James. This fails to take account of the fact that to identify oneself by reference to one’s brother, rather than one’s father, was extremely unusual and requires explanation. (The only theory which does explain it is that which identifies James as the James whom everyone knew.)

The traditional identification (1) remains the best. On whether the letter is an authentic writing of the Lord’s brother, or a pseudepigraphal letter written under his name, see Introduction.
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It seems to me that this is all speculation. In the absense of extra-Biblical evidence, how could you know if these names are meant to refer to the same people or not?
Do you rule out as not "extra biblical evidence" the traditions recorded bt Church Fathers?

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Old 08-05-2008, 11:28 AM   #9
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I think that the idea that James the pillar of the Jerusalem church is James the brother of Jesus has the same evidence behind it as the idea that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife. I don't see enough substance to even discuss this.
You have lost me, Toto. Did you read the OP? Where in the OP is anything stated (or even asked) about James of Jerusalem?

(Is it possible you are reading my comments on that other thread into this thread? The two are only tangentially related.)

What I want to know is this: Does Mark have the mother of Jesus witnessing the crucifixion? (Does Mary the mother of the four named sons in Mark 6.3 match the Mary who is the mother of James and Joses in chapters 15 and 16?) Also, what is the relationship (if any) between the James and Jude from Mark 6.3 and the James and Jude from Jude [1.]1?

I apologize if this thread does not have enough substance for you; it was a genuine question, and I genuinely wanted possible answers.

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Old 08-05-2008, 11:53 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
It always helps to do what many (most) here never seem to do -- i.e., look in critical commentaries.

Here for instance, in the remarks of C. Bigg, A critical and exegetical commentary on the Epistles of St. Peter and St. Jude (Edinburgh: T&T Clark International. 1901) 323, is not only an answer to your question, but a notation that it is not something new:


Quote:
Five personages of the name of Jude occur in apostolic or sub-apostolic times. (1) Judas Iscariot. (2) The Apostle Ἰούδας Ἰακώβου, Luke 6:16; Acts 1:13; John 14:22; this “son of James” is commonly identified with Lebbaeus or Thaddaeus. (3) Judas, the Lord’s brother, brother also of James, Matt. 13:55; Mark 6:3, where he is named last or last but one. (4) Judas Barsabbas, Acts 15:22–33. (5) Judas, the last Jewish bishop of Jerusalem in the time of Hadrian, Eus. H.E. iv. 5. 3.

The author of our Epistle gives two descriptions of himself —(1)Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ δοῦλος: (2)ἀδελφὸς δε Ἰσκώβου. The first does not mean that he was an apostle (see note on 2 Pet. 1:1), and ver. 17 is generally understood to mean that he did not so regard himself. His brother James also was not an apostle. The second identifies our Jude with the brother of the Lord.

But why does he not call himself the brother of the Lord? Clement of Alexandria in his commentary, which still exists in a Latin version, answered the question thus—“Judas, qui catholicam scripsit epistolam, frater filiorum Joseph exstans ualde religiosus et cum sciret propinquitatem domini, non tamen dicit se ipsum fratrem eius esse, sed quid dixit? Judas seruus Jesu Christi utpote domini, frater autem Jacobi.” Zahn (Einleitung, ii. p. 84) adopts this explanation, which is probably correct. The sense is, “Jude, the slave, I dare not say the brother, of Jesus Christ, but certainly the brother of James.”
An English translation of Clement's commentary on the Catholic Epistles is online here.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/A...#P9993_2824767

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