Shulammit

T

Young woman has been mistranslated fo virgin (not having had prior sexual expeiences; for which there is no Hebrew/Aramaic translation!!!!!!!!!!!!!). :notworthy :notworthy

rlogan

Hebrew Bible.

I guess it was spin who raised the objection here to calling it the "Old Testament".

And that is a slight to the Hebrew Bible.

Ebonmuse

Well, the whole creating-the-world thing flows from the fact that Christians eventually came to believe Jesus to be one and the same with God the Father. But as for splitting God into separate parts, there is a precedent for this in the Hebrew Bible: the Jewish belief in a figure called Wisdom. I don't have references at hand right now, but later Judaism did believe in a figure called Wisdom, God's agent in the world, that was conceptualized in terms very similar to those later used to describe the Christian Logos.

Llyricist

Well if you use the USSR....then you lose the "victor" aspect don't ya?

By becoming the official religion of Rome round about the 4th century is how, remember what we have has been pushed through the victorious Christian filter since then.
The point here being that the slaughter of the children is NOT supported by anyone....including Josephus.

Well you ARE good at answering your own questions.
excuse me.....witnesses??? What witnesses?
And the circle goes round and round.

mrmoderate

You sure are scamming time to rationalize your answers aren't you Llyricist?Not at all. The USSR was mostly victorious until recently. In the USSR, everytime a new leader took control their history changed to support that leader. Let's try to keep time in perspective and stop using one particular time to support what you want to be true.
Again, taking time out of context. Christianity was an oppressed faith for 3 centuries of it's teachings before before being completely altered by the Romans. The biblical writings were not done by victors but rather by persecuted people considered cultist by the reigning government.


The point is just that. The bible is not biased for the sake of being biased. Herod was a faux Jew who was more loyal to the Romans than to Judaism. Herod was hated and resented by all Jews because Rome had chosen him to be king knowing damn well he was not really considered a Jew by those Jews that demanded a Jewish king. The bible simply treats Herod for his actions relating to Jesus.

My answer to the Pilate issue does not support your claim that the bible holds Pilate in a good light. Just because Pilate does not come across as being as terrible as other writings claim he was does not make his having Jesus whipped and executed a good thing.

The witnesses are those who wrote the books of the New Testament.

The only thing circular here is your bouncing around the time table to make your point.

Llyricist

I'm not real sure what you mean by this... but if it relates to how much time between your post and my reply..... you can go.... errrrr actually if you must know, Saturday is my music day (note my nickname), I replied to your post within 10 minutes of reading it (I read the other posts as well before responding)
LMAO!!! this is really too funny, This doesn't help your argument at all. You are saying that the victors are changing the history to support the new leader and denigrate the previous right?...... THINK man THINK!!!

I'm afraid it is YOU that is misunderstanding the temporal issues here. My point is that what we have of the biblical writings has passed through the filter of the eventually victorious Christians..... YOU conveniently forget that fact and claim what we have is actually untouched writings by the defeated? Hello??

BTW the only problem the Romans seemed to have with the early Christians was that they (the Christians) refused to worship the Roman Gods as well as their own. They called Christians "Atheists" because of this.
Oh and no-one else would notice that Herod had all the kids under 2 slaughtered??? As if that ONLY relates to Jesus??? give me a break man..... ANYONE would notice such a thing, and report it in a list of all the lousy things that that he did (at the very least Josephus would have).
Well not entirely (in answer to your first statement), however the fact is that the Gospels have Pilate bending over backwards to SAVE Jesus from that punishment and finally relenting to the will of the Jewish crowd..... and washing his hands of the whole matter (refusing to accept responsibility)... if that isn't a positive portrayal.... well you have some sort of different calculus for determining such things I guess.

and they witnessed what?

It's actually you that is doing the bouncing, I recognize the fact that the Christians taking over the Roman Empire came between whatever happened in 1st Century Judea and now.... you seem to skip that fact.

edited for a couple of spelling errors and clarity

NOGO

Actually this should be translated as follows:

Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the maid is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,

Note the tense.

I know that Matthew has done it. What I am saying is that I don't buy it.

Even if I buy your "plural" argument (and I don't) it will not lead to the conclusion that the OT is speaking of Jesus. With this kind of argument I can prove that the HB is speaking about me.

Actually what early Christians believed is that when Yahweh/Elohim spoke and said "let there be light" he engendered a Son, the Word. And through him he created the world. But we do not need to believe everything people say do we?

Romans 16:25-26

NOGO

There is no Hebrew translation! Says who?

rlogan

That's right, NOGO. These are particularly damning. The riding of the ass and colt into jerusalem is another case. We have Zechariah 9:9

9: Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

and Matthew:

"7": And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.


Now, can Jesus really ride two animals? This is just really low-tech bumbling in the prophesy dumpster-diving world.

Can you belive these guys?

Amaleq13

Yep.

I tend to view it as influenced by Mark's knowledge of the actual experiences of the prophets of the Kingdom of God (ie Q) but I wondered if you knew of any HB source.

Run Forrest, run!