mountainman

I have reviewed this book by Gibson.


I will get to look at Sta Maria Antiqua sarcophagi in time.
For the moment, be aware that Dura is not unambiguous.



Although I have not yet read this work, I have almost
completed a reading of the book "Pagans and Christians (or via: amazon.co.uk)" by Robin Lane Fox. (1986) -- published a year later.

Is there someone who has read both these two books
who might be able to relate which of the two was
preferred and the reasons; or are they each unique?

Thanks for any information.
Best wishes,


Pete Brown

youngalexander

Pete, if there is an elephant you persist in missing it!

hint

I threw that up to test the reaction. There was none.
Am currently reading what the art historians have to say about pre-Constantinian Xianity. Lots of interesting stuff. 2nd century apologists seem to figure quite prominently. HJ does not.

mountainman

Thanks for the hint YA.

I am in the process of collating my notes on the book
by Robin Lane Fox and will post again then.

In your other post you wrote:

What can you tell me about the 30 citations by Snyder?
How many times is art at Dura-Europa included in this list?
Which is his main citation (and date) for the art collection?

Many thanks, and best wishes,

Pete Brown

arricchio

I read Fox's book many years ago. I'd be interested in reading it again. Unfortunately I'm up to my eyeballs this summer and the fall semester is coming. So not much chance of getting to it. I'd be interested in seeing your notes.


By the way, who is HJ?
Nevermind, I figured it out.

mountainman

Thanks arricho,

I think that many readers will find them absolutely fascinating.
The 600 odd pages went rather quickly but in the end we are
left with "Robin Lane Fox's Condensed listing of archeological
and/or scientific citations for the existence of "christianity" in
the pre-Nicene epoch.

We have already been through the great bulk of them, in this
forum, and in associated discussions. I have to say that the
research yielded by volume far more evidence in support of
my thesis that Constantine invented christianity.

Best wishes for now,


Pete

arricchio

Oh Mountainman, Mountainman. I wish I could dissuade from this idea. I just don't think that anyone as thick-headed as Constantine apparently was on matters theological could have contrived such an elaborate system of theology. But we've had that discussion.

mountainman

With just one solitary unambiguous archeological and/or
modern scientific citation for the existence of anything
"christian" in the pre-Nicaean epoch, any one person
would dissuade me from the hypothesis that Eusebius
tendered a package of fiction to Constantine.

But until that citation is mentioned ...

Perhaps, but very shortly you may perceive that
Robin Lane Fox and Dr. Treadgold do not see eye
to eye on a number of critical issues in regard to
Constantine, who is described as "thick-necked",
not "thick-headed".

Academics remain blissfully ignorant of the native
cunning of the military mind. As Smedley Butler
keenly perceived, "War is Racket". The new
testament was a baby born onto an empire of war.


Best wishes,

Pete Brown

youngalexander

Ah Pete, how we love and indulge you!

A-P p134:

The vault of the canopy and the ceiling of the baptistery were painted a dark blue with stars formed by rays and dots.

I cannot tell you how happy I was to read this, and to observe the ceiling
Pete, as you know we are privileged in Oz with black skies and a brilliant display of stars. Imagine my amazement some ten yrs ago when trouping about Italia. The churches/cathedrals invariably displayed azure blue apses and a regular array (geometric) arrangement of stars?? As a physicist and atmospheric scientist I naturally found this fascinating.

I shall not boor either you, or the lurkers, with my scientific conclusions re this, the degree of humidity in the european atmosphere (notice the vapor trails), the ephemeral nature of casual heavenly observation [see my notes while staring thru a skylight in Normandy as to why those geometric patterns developed], the various levels of this heavenly patterning and its possible correlation with scientific developments of the time, nor indeed with the culmination of these designs in the splendid ceiling of Sacre Coeur which displays the entire Milky Way - before it was even known?!

but I have digressed;

The canopy wall contained the Good Shepherd, with Adam and Eve below the figure of the shepherd. To the left of the baptismal canopy, on the south wall, is the Woman at the Well and David and Goliath farther to the left, both on the upper register. To the right of the canopy, on the north wall, we find on the upper register the Healing of the Paralytic and Peter and Jesus walking on the water near a boat. On the Lower level are several women, approaching what appears to be a tomb.

The thing is Pete, you have undoubtedly discovered an odd occurance. Altho scholars discovered it long ago. Unfortunately you have jumped to a decidedly far fetched explanation.

I say again, if there is an elephant lurking hereabouts, may it not consist of the following connected questions.

1. Why are the early Christian epistles silent about a historical jesus?

2. Why is early Christian art late? > 200 C.E.

3. Why is early Christian art overwhelmingly 4:1 OT:NT - & NT does not mean Gospel HJ?

The first Q has been discussed here continuously. Where are the Art historians? What say you re Q2 & Q3?

Many of you are looking to broaden the discussion, particularly those who are MJ inclined. May I recommend the archaeological evidence, which seems to be severely neglected hereabouts!

PS: Mods in OP has been linked to 'Pagans & Christians' by Gus diZerega 2001

Amaleq13

Fixed

arricchio

I was just perusing my copy of Fox and found this on page 268. I wonder if you noted it as well:
Hmmmm…..

Ha! Probably true. I think I'll ask Dr. Treadgold his opinion of Robert Lane Fox the next time I see him. He'll probably say "Robert Lane Who?" And yes, "thick-headed" is my term not his although I don't think he'd completely disagree with it.

P.S. He has a new book out: Early Byzantine Historians I haven't seen it yet, but apparently there's a section on Eusebius. I'll see if the university library has a copy yet and let you know what it says.