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Old 11-02-2008, 12:10 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by JULIAN
It is worth while to recall in a few words whence and how we first arrived at a conception of God; next to compare what is said about the divine among the Hellenes and Hebrews; and finally |321 to enquire of those who are neither Hellenes nor Jews, but belong to the sect of the Galilaeans, why they preferred the belief of the Jews to ours; and what, further, can be the reason why they do not even adhere to the Jewish beliefs but have abandoned them also and followed a way of their own. For they have not accepted a single admirable or important doctrine of those that are held either by us Hellenes or by the Hebrews who derived them from Moses; but from both religions they have gathered what has been engrafted like powers of evil, as it were, on these nations----atheism from the Jewish levity, and a sordid and slovenly way of living from our indolence and vulgarity; and they desire that this should be called the noblest worship of the gods.
Dear Readers,

It should be noted that Julian is highly regarded for his tolerance towards all other religions of the time, and the question needs to be asked as to why he selected to legislate the name change. The passage quoted above is from what remains of a refutation of Julian via Cyril the next century. However the reading of more of the source indicates Julian had a tolerance for religions.

The exact nature of emperor Julian's invectives against the christians in the Roman empire in the mid fourth century remains to be explained in common terms because Julian is invariably dressed down as an apostate. In actual fact he was a great academic, and a person who was known for his tolerance of other religions. We must understand that when he came to power many of the ancient temples lay in ruins, and the basilica cult was in full swing. The tide had surged since Constantine, and Julian could not prevail against it. But he left his opinion. And he legislated that this cult be called by the name of Galilaeans.


Best wishes,


Pete
I don't know that he did legislate. But whether he did or no, the point is utterly irrelevant. It's plain that Julian was particularly hostile to Christianity, but this has no bearing on the question of when Christianity originated.
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Old 11-02-2008, 07:25 AM   #142
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Universal toleration and artful persecution of the galilaeans:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GIBBON
Chapter XXIII - Reign of Julian

Part I
The Religion of Julian - Universal Toleration - He Attempts to Restore and Reform the Pagan Worship - To Rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem - His Artful Persecution of the Christians - Mutual Zeal and Injustice


The character of Apostate has injured the reputation of Julian; and the enthusiasm which clouded his virtues has exaggerated the real and apparent magnitude of his faults. Our partial ignorance may represent him as a philosophic monarch, who studied to protect, with an equal hand, the religious factions of the empire; and to allay the theological fever which had inflamed the minds of the people, from the edicts of Diocletian to the exile of Athanasius. A more accurate view of the character and conduct of Julian will remove this favorable prepossession for a prince who did not escape the general contagion of the times. We enjoy the singular advantage of comparing the pictures which have been delineated by his fondest admirers and his implacable enemies. The actions of Julian are faithfully related by a judicious and candid historian, the impartial spectator of his life and death. The unanimous evidence of his contemporaries is confirmed by the public and private declarations of the emperor himself; and his various writings express the uniform tenor of his religious sentiments, which policy would have prompted him to dissemble rather than to affect. A devout and sincere attachment for the gods of Athens and Rome constituted the ruling passion of Julian[1039]; the powers of an enlightened understanding were betrayed and corrupted by the influence of superstitious prejudice; and the phantoms which existed only in the mind of the emperor had a real and pernicious effect on the government of the empire. The vehement zeal of the Christians, who despised the worship, and overturned the altars of those fabulous deities, engaged their votary in a state of irreconcilable hostility with a very numerous party of his subjects; and he was sometimes tempted by the desire of victory, or the shame of a repulse, to violate the laws of prudence, and even of justice. The triumph of the party, which he deserted and opposed, has fixed a stain of infamy on the name of Julian; and the unsuccessful apostate has been overwhelmed with a torrent of pious invectives, of which the signal was given by the sonorous trumpet[1040] of Gregory Nazianzen[1041]. The interesting nature of the events which were crowded into the short reign of this active emperor, deserve a just and circumstantial narrative. His motives, his counsels, and his actions, as far as they are connected with the history of religion, will be the subject of the present chapter.
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Old 11-02-2008, 10:15 AM   #143
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Universal toleration and artful persecution of the galilaeans:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GIBBON
Chapter XXIII - Reign of Julian

Part I
The Religion of Julian - Universal Toleration - He Attempts to Restore and Reform the Pagan Worship - To Rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem - His Artful Persecution of the Christians - Mutual Zeal and Injustice


The character of Apostate has injured the reputation of Julian; and the enthusiasm which clouded his virtues has exaggerated the real and apparent magnitude of his faults. Our partial ignorance may represent him as a philosophic monarch, who studied to protect, with an equal hand, the religious factions of the empire; and to allay the theological fever which had inflamed the minds of the people, from the edicts of Diocletian to the exile of Athanasius. A more accurate view of the character and conduct of Julian will remove this favorable prepossession for a prince who did not escape the general contagion of the times. We enjoy the singular advantage of comparing the pictures which have been delineated by his fondest admirers and his implacable enemies. The actions of Julian are faithfully related by a judicious and candid historian, the impartial spectator of his life and death. The unanimous evidence of his contemporaries is confirmed by the public and private declarations of the emperor himself; and his various writings express the uniform tenor of his religious sentiments, which policy would have prompted him to dissemble rather than to affect. A devout and sincere attachment for the gods of Athens and Rome constituted the ruling passion of Julian[1039]; the powers of an enlightened understanding were betrayed and corrupted by the influence of superstitious prejudice; and the phantoms which existed only in the mind of the emperor had a real and pernicious effect on the government of the empire. The vehement zeal of the Christians, who despised the worship, and overturned the altars of those fabulous deities, engaged their votary in a state of irreconcilable hostility with a very numerous party of his subjects; and he was sometimes tempted by the desire of victory, or the shame of a repulse, to violate the laws of prudence, and even of justice. The triumph of the party, which he deserted and opposed, has fixed a stain of infamy on the name of Julian; and the unsuccessful apostate has been overwhelmed with a torrent of pious invectives, of which the signal was given by the sonorous trumpet[1040] of Gregory Nazianzen[1041]. The interesting nature of the events which were crowded into the short reign of this active emperor, deserve a just and circumstantial narrative. His motives, his counsels, and his actions, as far as they are connected with the history of religion, will be the subject of the present chapter.
There you are. Julian was intolerant of Christianity because Christianity was intolerant of other religious beliefs. That is irrelevant to the question of when and how Christianity originated. So there is absolutely no good reason for you to be quoting this. You're just evading the issue as usual.
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Old 11-02-2008, 05:39 PM   #144
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Universal toleration and artful persecution of the galilaeans:
There you are. Julian was intolerant of Christianity because Christianity was intolerant of other religious beliefs.
Dear J-D,

A better explanation providing a cover for the widest net of the evidence available, is that Julian for some strange reason managed to convince himself, that the fabrication of the christians (ie: the NT Canon) was a fiction, and he consequently simply treated the christians appropriately, by legislating that they be henceforth be known as "Galilaeans".

Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 11-02-2008, 05:45 PM   #145
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There you are. Julian was intolerant of Christianity because Christianity was intolerant of other religious beliefs.
Dear J-D,

A better explanation providing a cover for the widest net of the evidence available, is that Julian for some strange reason managed to convince himself, that the fabrication of the christians (ie: the NT Canon) was a fiction, and he consequently simply treated the christians appropriately, by legislating that they be henceforth be known as "Galilaeans".

Best wishes,


Pete
It's not a better explanation. It does not cover a greater amount of evidence. And you still haven't provided any evidence that Julian did legislate that Christians be known as 'Galilaeans'--not that you have shown any way in which the point is relevant. Finally, even if Julian believed that the whole of the New Testament canon was entirely fictional, that is not evidence of how or when Christianity originated.
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Old 11-02-2008, 07:55 PM   #146
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Extracted from here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libanius

The man in person we shall no more be able to see, but we can peruse his books, so numerous, and all written with skill. And yet the greatest part of those who have grown old in writing, have shunned more branches of literature than just so many as they have ventured to treat upon; whence they have reaped less credit for what they have done, than blame for what they have not written about.

But He, at one and the same time, carrying on wars and composing books, hath left behind him works in every descriptions of literature: in all of them surpassing all competitors, but his own works in that of "Epistles." Taking up these books I procure myself some consolation; by the aid of these, his offspring, you will be able to bear your sorrow; for these has he left behind him to the world in the place of children, and which time will not be able to obliterate along with the colours in his portraits.

Best wishes,



Pete
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Old 11-02-2008, 08:12 PM   #147
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Extracted from here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libanius

The man in person we shall no more be able to see, but we can peruse his books, so numerous, and all written with skill. And yet the greatest part of those who have grown old in writing, have shunned more branches of literature than just so many as they have ventured to treat upon; whence they have reaped less credit for what they have done, than blame for what they have not written about.

But He, at one and the same time, carrying on wars and composing books, hath left behind him works in every descriptions of literature: in all of them surpassing all competitors, but his own works in that of "Epistles." Taking up these books I procure myself some consolation; by the aid of these, his offspring, you will be able to bear your sorrow; for these has he left behind him to the world in the place of children, and which time will not be able to obliterate along with the colours in his portraits.

Best wishes,



Pete
More irrelevance.
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Old 11-03-2008, 02:52 AM   #148
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Default Julian ordered christians to be called Galilaeans.

The source is still eluding me. Is it the theodosian codex? Here is a secondary reference .... History of the Church of Christ By Joseph Milner, Isaac Milner

Quote:
Julian ordered christians to be called Galilaeans.

In his treatise of the Caesars, he asperses his uncle
the great Constantine, with much severity, and represents
the gospel as an asylum for the vilest of mankind.
Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 11-03-2008, 05:02 AM   #149
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Default Gregory of Nazianzus tells us Julian made a law to name christians Galilaeans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregory of Nazianzus
76

That measure of his was very childish and silly; so far from being that of a prince, as not even to be worthy of a person moderately sound of understanding, and this was his fancying that our subversion would follow upon his changing of our name, or that he shamed us as though called by the most opprobrious of titles. He immediately makes a change in our appellation, naming us Galilaeans instead of Christians, and making it law we should so be styled; proving by the act that the being called after Christ is a very great thing to one's glory, and highly honourable, by the very fact that he plotted how to deprive us of the same; being perhaps afraid of that Name, as are the devils, and for that reason changing it to another name, something neither customary nor generally known.
From Orations of Gregory of Nazianzus/First invective against Julian the Emperor
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Old 11-03-2008, 01:16 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Gregory of Nazianzus
76

That measure of his was very childish and silly; so far from being that of a prince, as not even to be worthy of a person moderately sound of understanding, and this was his fancying that our subversion would follow upon his changing of our name, or that he shamed us as though called by the most opprobrious of titles. He immediately makes a change in our appellation, naming us Galilaeans instead of Christians, and making it law we should so be styled; proving by the act that the being called after Christ is a very great thing to one's glory, and highly honourable, by the very fact that he plotted how to deprive us of the same; being perhaps afraid of that Name, as are the devils, and for that reason changing it to another name, something neither customary nor generally known.
From Orations of Gregory of Nazianzus/First invective against Julian the Emperor
I accept that.

I still don't see how it's relevant.
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