Freethought & Rationalism Archive

diana · 09-22-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

Quote:

Originally Posted by placebo

(3) Jonah survives 3 days in the belly of a whale (Jonah 1-2)

How about just before that? A crew prays to their various gods and throw lots to see who is the cause of their peril...and it works.

Note, they didn't draw lots to see who's to be sacrificed, they threw them for divine guidance.

Right. But that wasn't superstition, which is worthy of derision, mind you. It was faith, which is admirable.

The base problem of using this argument, placebo, is that believers in religion X will place the crazy bits of their belief in one bucket, over which they place the label "faith," while they dismiss similar or even identical bits of competing beliefs in another bucket, over which they place the label "superstition." It's "faith" to believe god answered your prayer and sent you money for the microwave you wanted, but "superstition" if Ahmed over there says Allah granted him triumph in the Arab Games last month. What you must do is find a way to help them see that they're using positively-loaded and negatively-loaded words to differentiate ideas that all belong in the same bucket.

Good luck.

d

GenesisNemesis · 09-22-2007, 05:32 PM

Clouseau, you'e contradicted yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

The point of this miracle, along with others, is that it is evidence for deity. Of course, if one stamps one's foot, closes one's mind and insists that deity cannot exist, then of course it won't make sense.

And:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

This one may be allegory, may be miracle. It doesn't matter which.

So, if we "stamp our foot" and close our minds and insist that it is an allegory, not a miracle, then how in the world does it matter? Tell me, how can a miracle possibly make sense, when by definition it defies all sense, anyways?

GenesisNemesis · 09-22-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

So far, there has not been one actual argument from sceptics- mere bile and bigotry instead. Now is this a place for intellect, or not????????

Natural virgin birth is possible among some animal species, but not humans. Artificial human parthenogenesis may be possible, but due to ethical concerns, highly unlikely. Is that bile and bigoted? I think not.

Now, it would be astronomically improbable that a God would somehow artificially inseminate some random virgin on a random part of the world, giving Christ immaculate conception, and at the moment of birth, the star of Bethlehem showed the magical way for the magi, right into the house where Jesus was being born.

There is no reason why celestial events would be connected with terrestial ones, other than perhaps the gravity of the Sun and Moon interacting with the tides.

See why we can sometimes be bile and bigoted?

placebo · 09-22-2007, 06:24 PM

The list hasn't grown very much. And I thought it was such a simple request.

Amedeo · 09-22-2007, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by placebo

I have trouble understanding how people with an IQ above 80 can believe in the fairy tale known as Christianity. This is not to single out Christians, it's just that they are predominant in the world I live. I've read and participated in most of the arguments such as God as First Cause, Argument From Design, Moral Arguments, and Pascal's Wager. Arguing these topics can be frustrating, and I think they give unwarranted credibility to Christianity and disguise the fact that it is just plain silly. Instead, I would like to focus on the absurdity of Christianity. Things that no sane person has experienced in their earthly lives. Who has ever come across a talking snake? Or seen anyone but a magician turn water into wine? In this regard I would like the board's help in compiling an extensive list of non-sensical Christian beliefs and events that even a Caveman can see are silly. If such a list already exists I would appreciate directions to it. If not I'll get it started (with sources):

(1) Talking snake in Garden of Eden (Genesis 3)
(2) Jesus turns water into wine (John 2)
(3) Jonah survives 3 days in the belly of a whale (Jonah 1-2)

You are missing the point as to what a religious belief is. It is not a belief in what seems to be fairy tales, for these have been taken care of more than two thousand years ago: allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures. (In view of secular wisdom, that is, philosophy, people started understanding the mythical character of many tales, but developed the theory that truth was being spoken through "fairy tales" so that it would be accessible to all humans!)

The point of the belief in a god is that the god offers SECURITY to miserable humans: protection, provisions, and immortality. So, regardless of IQ, many people want to believe in a god, even though it is a myth unto other. (Religionists are not theoretical theists, namely deists. That's why all arguments against the existence of a god mean nothing to a believer. A deist can take or leave his belief, since the god is actually irrelevant to his life.) You can list hundreds of fairfy tales... to no avail.

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.... and all the rest.

Gooch's dad · 09-22-2007, 06:29 PM

As diana has already pointed out, argument by derision isn't particularly rational. It is an appeal to emotion. Why should atheists resort to such tactics, when there are entirely rational arguments as to why Christianity is false?

Minimalist · 09-22-2007, 07:33 PM

Proclaiming "magic" as a reason does invite derision, however.

placebo · 09-22-2007, 07:34 PM

I think some of you are missing the point of my approach. It's no more complicated than "The Emperor Has No Clothes." If people in their private lives want to believe in fairy tales that is none of my business. If it makes them feel secure, makes them happy, gives them purpose, lets them feel superior- good for them. The problem is many of these same people want to base public policy on this nonsense. It's getting extreme. What should scare everyone is that we've got a president that claims to talk with God. We've got people in power that don't respect earthly life because there is an afterlife. That makes it way to easy for them to sacrifice thousands with little if any remorse. And the source of this confidence and bravado is a fairy tale. I have no problem pointing out that snakes can't talk and virgins can't give birth.

NZSkep · 09-22-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooch's dad

As diana has already pointed out, argument by derision isn't particularly rational. It is an appeal to emotion. Why should atheists resort to such tactics, when there are entirely rational arguments as to why Christianity is false?

beacuase it is fun! I don;t think this is supposed to be a dead serious thread, and probably belongs in 'humour'.

here's another for your list:

an all powerful god was afraid that a really tall tower would reach him up in heaven so he fucked with everyones languages to stop them building it (he could have just ordered them I suppose but where is the fun in that).

Of course, that might have seemed reasonable to people at the time with their limited knowledge of space, but given that we have put satellites in orbit, been to the moon, and even sent probes to jupiter and further it just seems utterly absurd.

Doug Shaver · 09-22-2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooch's dad

Why should atheists resort to such tactics, when there are entirely rational arguments as to why Christianity is false?

They shouldn't. But they do, because atheists as a group are no more rational than theists. That being so, many of them are just as easily seduced by fallacious arguments such as ridicule.

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09-22-2007, 06:24 PM	#14
placebo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 31	The list hasn't grown very much. And I thought it was such a simple request.

09-22-2007, 06:29 PM	#16
Gooch's dad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Madison WI USA Posts: 3,508	As diana has already pointed out, argument by derision isn't particularly rational. It is an appeal to emotion. Why should atheists resort to such tactics, when there are entirely rational arguments as to why Christianity is false?

09-22-2007, 07:33 PM	#17
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Proclaiming "magic" as a reason does invite derision, however.

09-22-2007, 07:34 PM	#18
placebo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 31	I think some of you are missing the point of my approach. It's no more complicated than "The Emperor Has No Clothes." If people in their private lives want to believe in fairy tales that is none of my business. If it makes them feel secure, makes them happy, gives them purpose, lets them feel superior- good for them. The problem is many of these same people want to base public policy on this nonsense. It's getting extreme. What should scare everyone is that we've got a president that claims to talk with God. We've got people in power that don't respect earthly life because there is an afterlife. That makes it way to easy for them to sacrifice thousands with little if any remorse. And the source of this confidence and bravado is a fairy tale. I have no problem pointing out that snakes can't talk and virgins can't give birth.

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