Freethinkaluva

While Acharya does quote Joseph Wheless, the fact is that that quote paraphrasing Tertullian comes from the Catholic Encyclopedia in its article on "Tertullian":

"You say we worship the sun; so do you."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14520c.htm

"book 1, chapter 13 of "Ad Nationes" "The Charge of Worshipping the Sun Met by a Retort" seems to have a lot in common with chapter 16 of Tertullian's Apology, as follows:

Although he's denying being a sun worshipper, of course, by using phrases "more information" and "greater versimilitude," it sounds very much like Tertullian is saying that those who claim the Christians worship the sun are better informed and more truthful!

By the way, Roger, on your own website is a sentence - I'm assuming you translated it - from the Apology, that sounds almost exactly the same as the paraphrase from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Clearly it is not a misquote. I would think Roger Pearse would already know this information on Tertullian. Don't you claim to be an expert on Tertullian? This is your website, right - http://www.tertullian.org ?

What's up with that?

Roger Pearse

Indeed. We have in these texts something unusual in antiquity, which is a view of the process of composition in an ancient author.

Tertullian initially composed book 1 of Ad Nationes, following the pattern of the Greek apologists in some of his arguments, and realising the weaknesses of their approach. In book 2 he drew on his antiquarian knowledge and used a now lost work by Varro to detail some of the details of paganism, such as the headless Joves of early Latin practise.

However he then recast the whole work in the Apologeticum, strengthening and tightening it up and shifting the approach from addressing the emperor to addressing the local authorities, and also the apologetic method. This laid the foundations for all subsequent apologies.

Finally we also have a modified version of the Apologeticum, which was found at the Benedictine Abbey of Fulda in the 1584 by a book-hunter named Modius, who reported various readings from it. Unfortunately this manuscript was lost in the sack of the abbeys in the 30 years war, but the variants were printed as an appendix in the 1597 Junius edition of his works, after having quite a history of their own. This version appears to be a slightly earlier draft of the Apologeticum than that found in all the other medieval manuscripts, and has a different and longer (but clearly authentic) text in chapter 19. (More about this ms here)

Not in context.

No, this is a summary of the contents of the Apologeticum which I 'borrowed' from a book.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here -- sorry.

That quoting that snippet out of context inverts the sense of what Tertullian is saying is apparent from looking at the context. I'm mildly averse to those like Wheless who hunt down snippets in long works in order to make people say things that they do not say, and indeed oppose at length in the very same work. It's fraudulent, surely?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Freethinkaluva

Roger,

The point is that Tertullian is clearly stating there were those who claimed Christianity was SUN WORSHIP. I don't see how you can possibly make the claim that it's "out of context." I've already shown the context, and the Catholic Encyclopedia's summary appears to be accurate.

Also, I don't appreciate the "fraud" remark - how is it "fraudulent?" That's simply defamation of character. If we can't excerpt quotes in order to demonstrate points, then we would have to reproduce the entire work, no? And that would make frauds of all of us, because all of us use quotes to prove points. That's a ridiculous comment, frankly.

Even the quote that you "borrowed" on your own website includes a nearly identical translation:

"A few of the more refined of you think we worship the sun. Again, that is your practise, not ours."

And, by the way, it seems to me that you don't make it obvious on your site that those aren't your words or translations but those of others. Would you mind citing your translation source for that?

In any event, I can see for my own eyes the meaning of Tertullian's words - he's clearly saying IN CONTEXT that detractors of his era were claiming that Christianity was SUN WORSHIP. There's simply no way around that fact as Tertullian makes this point on at least 2 different occasions in his "Ad Nationes" and in his "Apologeticum".

For Christ sakes Roger, Tertullian even titles it "book 1, chapter 13 of "Ad Nationes" "The Charge of Worshipping the Sun Met by a Retort".

Is there some mystical way that we are meant to understand this, Roger? Or are you just being petulant with your "out of context" comment? Is this what religion does to people, make them dishonest?