Freethought & Rationalism Archive

proudfootz · 10-07-2012, 03:47 PM

Sorry I could only link to abstract of this article:

Quote:

Paul among the Philosophers: The Case of Sin in Romans 6—8

Emma Wasserman

Abstract

Against the prevailing view that Paul is (at most) marginally influenced by Greek intellectual traditions, this article argues that Romans 6…8 manifests certain Platonic traditions about the soul. Following a consideration of scholarship on Pauline anthropology and a critical definition of discourse, Paul's appropriation of Greek philosophy is recast as the adaptation of a Platonic discourse about extreme immorality or the death of the soul. This discourse explains the language about sin, death, flesh, passions and the body; the metaphors of enslavement, imprisonment and rule that predominate in these chapters; and the inciting role of law in Rom. 7.7-13.

http://jnt.sagepub.com/content/30/4/387.abstract

The following is supposed to be a quote from the paper:

Quote:

As I have argued for chs. 6 and 7, a Platonic discourse about the soul provides for a more coherent interpretation of Paul’s diverse statements about sin. Once we understand the divide in Platonic terms as between sin, flesh, members, body (negatively) and passions, which are opposed to reason (the inner person), [nous] and law, these different statements cohere as elaborations of the same oral-psychological premises. But ch. 8 introduces something new to the picture developed in chs. 6–7: the [pneuma] (spirit) of God. This has important implications for God’s intervention with Christ in 8.1-13, as it suggests that Paul envisions a special type of [pneuma] that dwells inside the mind and restores its capacity for reason and self-control. While I cannot here explore the mechanism by which this happens, an infusion of God’s [pneuma], Paul consistently treats the new way of life offered to Gentiles as a new state of self-control. This makes good sense when considered as a restoration of the Gentile mind that God punished in Rom. 1.18-32 by handing it over to the rule of passions and to an evil mind (1.24, 26, 28).

Appreciating Paul’s use of Platonic assumptions allows one to make sense of the association between sin and flesh throughout 8.1-13 as well as exhortations such as ‘if by the [pneuma] you put to death the doings of the body, you will live’ (8.13). On my reading, this means that the [pneuma] enables a new mastery of the body with its passions and desires that allow for ethical behavior and acquittal at the final judgment. Platonic premises are particularly helpful for understanding 8.5-11 which attribute some form of intelligence to the flesh. ... In service of the analogy, Paul poses two hostile powers within the body, here flesh and spirit, and attributes them antithetical reasoning activities.

Apparently many scholars have also concluded that christianity was influenced by Greek philosophy:

Quote:

Bauer, Scepticism and Atheism

Roland Boer introduces Bruno Bauer as

+primarily a New Testament scholar
+sometime theologian
+sometime political commentator

Bauer appeared in the “first great wave” of critical Bible scholarship in Germany and always remained at its cutting edge “and beyond”. He was for a time widely regarded as the leader of the Young Hegelians (see previous post).

His assiduous attention to the details of the biblical texts and their wider cultural contexts led him to conclude that

*Christianity was a product of the second century

*The Gospels are creative theological literature and as such contain virtually no history, and certainly no evidence for an historical Jesus

*The Gospels are very largely Hellenistic literature, drawing upon the ideas of Stoicism, Philo and neo-Platonism.

...

For Bauer, the Christianity bequeathed to later generations was a crude amalgam of Philo’s neo-Platonism, Seneca’s stoicism and Roman imperial beliefs about the emperor as son of God...

Bauer’s interest in the influence of Stoicism and the thoughts expressed in Philo’s works are also alive today:

Troels Engbeg-Pedersen: Paul and the Stoics (2000)
M. Lee: Paul, the Stoics, and the Body of Christ (2006)
W. Loader: The Septuagint, Sexuality, and the New Testament: Case Studies on the Impact of the LXX in Philo and the New Testament (2004)
B. Winter (ed.): Philo and Paul among the Sophists (1997)

An addition to the above that I read recently is Th. D. Niko Huttunen: Paul and Epictetus on Law: a Comparison (2009).

http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/08/...ter-chapter-2/

proudfootz · 10-07-2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

I've known that many want to date Paul very early, but that's way early!

Now would you have written that without the intervention of the heavily defeated?

We will suppose that the thread is now over, bar the usual noises.

Not sure what your cryptic words are in reference to, but I might have noticed your error on my own.

But I do appreciate that use of the same metaphors from the same language could merely be a stylistic quirk.

But I surely am not the first person to suggest a Plato-Paul connection.

The thread is over? Just because you're throwing in the towel? :huh:

sotto voce · 10-07-2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

I've known that many want to date Paul very early, but that's way early!

Now would you have written that without the intervention of the heavily defeated?

We will suppose that the thread is now over, bar the usual noises.

Not sure what your cryptic words are in reference to

Cryptic, eh. You do seem to pick up things quickly.

Quote:

but I might have noticed your error on my own.

Or, you might have invented one on your own. If you had addressed the argument against yours, that might be considered less likely.

Quote:

But I do appreciate that use of the same metaphors from the same language could merely be a stylistic quirk.

Ah. Better late than never.

Quote:

But I surely am not the first person to suggest a Plato-Paul connection.

And you won't be the last. But the person to demonstrate it has yet to be born.

Sheshbazzar · 10-07-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

It is more than possible, imv, that Plato and many more philosophers were influenced by that scripture of Paul,.......So Plato might have been reflecting what he had read in Paul's scripture, or read about his scripture.

erm... Plato lived and wrote circa 400 BCE. When was it that you think 'Paul' lived and wrote?

I've known that many want to date Paul very early, but that's way early!

Now would you have written that without the intervention of the heavily defeated?

We will suppose that the thread is now over, bar the usual noises.

I am waiting for you to supply whatever actual verses of the Old Testament, "Paul's' scripture" that you think Plato's analogy of the parts and functions of the various members of the human body are based upon.
'Paul's' borrowings from the writings and philosophy of Plato is very obvious.

Now it is up to you to demonstrate -with appropriate OT Scriptural verse citations- WHERE Plato -according to your suggestion- derived his analogies and concepts from these Jewish Old Testament Scriptures.

sotto voce · 10-07-2012, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

It is more than possible, imv, that Plato and many more philosophers were influenced by that scripture of Paul,.......So Plato might have been reflecting what he had read in Paul's scripture, or read about his scripture.

erm... Plato lived and wrote circa 400 BCE. When was it that you think 'Paul' lived and wrote?

I've known that many want to date Paul very early, but that's way early!

Now would you have written that without the intervention of the heavily defeated?

We will suppose that the thread is now over, bar the usual noises.

I am waiting for you to supply whatever actual verses of the Old Testament, 'Paul's' scripture' that you think Plato's analogy of the parts and functions of the various members of the human body are based upon.

Perhaps you will be good enough to demonstrate why that supply is lacking.

This seems to be the third time today you have misrepresented my posts.

Sheshbazzar · 10-07-2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

It is more than possible, imv, that Plato and many more philosophers were influenced by that scripture of Paul, that had been taken, by force of circumstances, all around the known world, with Jews writing apologia to explain to Gentiles. So Plato might have been reflecting what he had read in Paul's scripture, or read about his scripture

Did I misrepresent? Or did you do such a piss-poor job of presenting your material that it was incomprehensible?
I believe I understood the thrust of your post perfectly.
If not then it is up to you to explain exactly what it was that you meant, for my benefit, and for any others following this thread.

sotto voce · 10-07-2012, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Did I misrepresent? Or did you do such a piss-poor job of presenting your material that it was incomprehensible?
I believe I understood the thrust of your post perfectly.
If not then it is up to you to explain exactly what it was that you meant, for my benefit, and for any others following this thread.

Misrepresentation alert

proudfootz · 10-07-2012, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Not sure what your cryptic words are in reference to

Cryptic, eh. You do seem to pick up things quickly.

Or, you might have invented one on your own. If you had addressed the argument against yours, that might be considered less likely.

Your argument was

a) similar phrases could be coincidental. Maybe so, maybe not.

b) that Plato could have picked stuff up from Paul. Highly unlikely IMO.

Quote:

Ah. Better late than never.

Gosh, I didn't realize you were in a big hurry.

Quote:

But I surely am not the first person to suggest a Plato-Paul connection.

And you won't be the last. But the person to demonstrate it has yet to be born.

Of course I won't be the last - it's something scholars have picked up on and they share their information with others.

Do you have any notion what it would take to 'demonstrate' a connection to your satisfaction?

Or are you just making the 'usual noises'?

sotto voce · 10-07-2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Not sure what your cryptic words are in reference to

Cryptic, eh. You do seem to pick up things quickly.

Or, you might have invented one on your own. If you had addressed the argument against yours, that might be considered less likely.

Your argument was

a) similar phrases could be coincidental. Maybe so, maybe not.

False.

Quote:

b) that Plato could have picked stuff up from Paul.

False.

Now you are not being set a good example, pf. What you need to do, if you are to avoid suspicion as a cheat, is quote from posts. It's very easy, and will save you time, too. I'll be happy to assist you with that.

proudfootz · 10-07-2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Now would you have written that without the intervention of the heavily defeated?

We will suppose that the thread is now over, bar the usual noises.

I am waiting for you to supply whatever actual verses of the Old Testament, "Paul's' scripture" that you think Plato's analogy of the parts and functions of the various members of the human body are based upon.
'Paul's' borrowings from the writings and philosophy of Plato is very obvious.

Now it is up to you to demonstrate -with appropriate OT Scriptural verse citations- WHERE Plato -according to your suggestion- derived his analogies and concepts from these Jewish Old Testament Scriptures.

It would seem that the fellow who thinks Plato got his ideas from 'scripture' is suggesting there is a connection, right?

The suggestion appears to be that Plato got his hands on some Hebrew scrolls, translated them, and derived the same 'christian' theology from them that only Paul was able to achieve some 400 years later.

I think I'll stick with Plato influencing Paul - it's a much more likely scenario with a lot of scholarly support.

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