Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Elijah · 02-06-2007, 11:13 AM

I had this conversation the other day on here and from my POV.

Jesus is the first and only true martyr. I don’t know of any pre Christian examples of someone just willingly going to their death like Jesus did. What he did was something new. Saint Stephen is who they call the first martyr but he was just imitating Jesus, but that imitation was enough to convince Paul that he had just seen something real. Paul killed a lot of holy men, but Stephen was the first to die in a way that made him believe that this holy man was actually holy.

Conviction is contagious. Jesus -> Stephen -> Paul -> Rome -> the World.
+
Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-06-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

I had this conversation the other day on here and from my POV.

Jesus is the first and only true martyr. I don’t know of any pre Christian examples of someone just willingly going to their death like Jesus did. What he did was something new. Saint Stephen is who they call the first martyr but he was just imitating Jesus, but that imitation was enough to convince Paul that he had just seen something real. Paul killed a lot of holy men, but Stephen was the first to die in a way that made him believe that this holy man was actually holy.

Conviction is contagious. Jesus -> Stephen -> Paul -> Rome -> the World.
+
Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Two questions:
1. What makes you think Jesus was willing?
2. Have you ever heard of Socrates? Ever heard of Thermopylae, for that matter?

People willingly died for causes long before Jesus.

No Robots · 02-06-2007, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

I had this conversation the other day on here and from my POV.

Jesus is the first and only true martyr. I don’t know of any pre Christian examples of someone just willingly going to their death like Jesus did. What he did was something new. Saint Stephen is who they call the first martyr but he was just imitating Jesus, but that imitation was enough to convince Paul that he had just seen something real. Paul killed a lot of holy men, but Stephen was the first to die in a way that made him believe that this holy man was actually holy.

Conviction is contagious. Jesus -> Stephen -> Paul -> Rome -> the World.
+
Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

This is pretty insightful. Don't forget, though, that Socrates could be counted as true martyr, no? Perhaps we should say that Christ provides the ultimate reproducible model for how to live a spiritual life without fear of martyrdom at the hands of the anti-spiritual mob and its leaders.

Y.B · 02-06-2007, 11:27 AM

I'd like to add that Socrates actually died for a cause, whereas according to myth, Jesus didn't really die, except for a weekend. Hardly a sacrifice from an eternal being.

Malachi151 · 02-06-2007, 11:33 AM

Jesus was certainly not the first martyr, not even the first Jewish martyr. And he didn't suffer for a weekend according to the story, he suffered for 6 hours.

Even the seven brothers sacrificed more than Jesus:

Quote:

2 Maccabees 7:
It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and thongs, to partake of unlawful swine’s flesh. One of them, acting as their spokesman, said, ‘What do you intend to ask and learn from us? For we are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors.’

The king fell into a rage, and gave orders to have pans and cauldrons heated. These were heated immediately, and he commanded that the tongue of their spokesman be cut out and that they scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of the brothers and the mother looked on. When he was utterly helpless, the king ordered them to take him to the fire, still breathing, and to fry him in a pan. The smoke from the pan spread widely, but the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, saying, ‘The Lord God is watching over us and in truth has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his song that bore witness against the people to their faces, when he said, “And he will have compassion on his slaves.” ’

After the first brother had died in this way, they brought forward the second for their sport. They tore off the skin of his head with the hair, and asked him, ‘Will you eat rather than have your body punished limb by limb?’ He replied in the language of his ancestors and said to them, ‘No.’ Therefore he in turn underwent tortures as the first brother had done. And when he was at his last breath, he said, ‘You accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life, because we have died for his laws.’

After him, the third was the victim of their sport. When it was demanded, he quickly put out his tongue and courageously stretched forth his hands, and said nobly, ‘I got these from Heaven, and because of his laws I disdain them, and from him I hope to get them back again.’ As a result the king himself and those with him were astonished at the young man’s spirit, for he regarded his sufferings as nothing.

After he too had died, they maltreated and tortured the fourth in the same way. When he was near death, he said, ‘One cannot but choose to die at the hands of mortals and to cherish the hope God gives of being raised again by him. But for you there will be no resurrection to life!’

Next they brought forward the fifth and maltreated him. But he looked at the king, and said, ‘Because you have authority among mortals, though you also are mortal, you do what you please. But do not think that God has forsaken our people. Keep on, and see how his mighty power will torture you and your descendants!’

After him they brought forward the sixth. And when he was about to die, he said, ‘Do not deceive yourself in vain. For we are suffering these things on our own account, because of our sins against our own God. Therefore astounding things have happened. But do not think that you will go unpunished for having tried to fight against God!’

The mother was especially admirable and worthy of honorable memory. Although she saw her seven sons perish within a single day, she bore it with good courage because of her hope in the Lord. She encouraged each of them in the language of their ancestors. Filled with a noble spirit, she reinforced her woman’s reasoning with a man’s courage, and said to them, ‘I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of humankind and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws.’

...

While she was still speaking, the young man said, ‘What are you waiting for? I will not obey the king’s command, but I obey the command of the law that was given to our ancestors through Moses. But you, who have contrived all sorts of evil against the Hebrews, will certainly not escape the hands of God. For we are suffering because of our own sins. And if our living Lord is angry for a little while, to rebuke and discipline us, he will again be reconciled with his own slaves. But you, unholy wretch, you most defiled of all mortals, do not be elated in vain and puffed up by uncertain hopes, when you raise your hand against the children of heaven. You have not yet escaped the judgment of the almighty, all-seeing God. For our brothers after enduring a brief suffering have drunk of ever-flowing life, under God’s covenant; but you, by the judgment of God, will receive just punishment for your arrogance. I, like my brothers, give up body and life for the laws of our ancestors, appealing to God to show mercy soon to our nation and by trials and plagues to make you confess that he alone is God, and through me and my brothers to bring to an end the wrath of the Almighty that has justly fallen on our whole nation.’

The king fell into a rage, and handled him worse than the others, being exasperated at his scorn. So he died in his integrity, putting his whole trust in the Lord.

Last of all, the mother died, after her sons.

This story may be fiction, or may be based on facts, impossible to say, but at the very least, according to the stories, in the story of the seven brothers they certainly suffer more and do it more willingly and defiantly than Jesus does in his story.

The truth is that the Jews had been cultivating martyrdom for hundreds for some time due to their occupation by the Romans.

neilgodfrey · 02-06-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemoralis

For one, why would Jesus' closest followers die for a cause that they made up?

Well the Roman authorities who made them die for their cause said they deserved to die because of their pigheaded fanaticism -- their willingness to die demonstrated their degenerate nature. "We" say the same thing about members of "fanatical" sects today, and about those "Japs" in the imperial army who refused to surrender, and about those "ratbags" who place themselves between bulldozers and Palestinian houses or rainforest trees, political hunger strikers or Falung Gong, or savage races who don't know the benefits of the higher civilization and better religion our ancestors brought them. Hell, even many criminals are willing to risk the death penalty for doing their thing. But when it's "our own" who die for their cause then of course they are saints.

And I mentioned not long ago how many more people have died for those other "bad" causes compared with those who have died for "our" cause?

I'm sure there's faulty logic in there somewhere but I enjoy the irony too much to take the time to find it.

Neil Godfrey
http://vridar.wordpress.com

PhilosopherJay · 02-06-2007, 12:01 PM

Hi Nemoralis,

The movie Xmen2 was on American network television a couple of nights ago. I hate to give away endings, but we may ask the analogous question here: If there are no mutants, why did Jean Grey (AKA Mutant Girl and Phoenix) die for them?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemoralis

I just finished Lee Strobel's A Case for Christ. It certainly wasn't astounding by any means...just typical Strobel stuff. But it did raise some questions for me.

For one, why would Jesus' closest followers die for a cause that they made up? It does seem unlikely that the story could be extrapolated so quickly after his death. I'm not as familiar with biblical history as I should be (which is the reason I read Strobel's book) so pardon me if this issue has been beaten to death. I have some other questions too but I'll add those in when they come up. I can't really remember everything at the moment and I don't have the book with me.

Elijah · 02-06-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Two questions:
1. What makes you think Jesus was willing?

2. Have you ever heard of Socrates? Ever heard of Thermopylae, for that matter?

People willingly died for causes long before Jesus.

Jesus predicts his death multiple times.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends.

Thermopylae the battle? Don’t know what you’re talking about there. But Socrates is a horrible example of a martyr. Socrates was just an old dumbass.

It just depends on how loosely you want to use the word Martyr. If you want to use it for everyone who died for something they believed in, or took death before dishonor then fine sure, but you’re going to have to make up a new word for what Jesus did. From my perspective what he did was unique and that uniqueness spread.

Malachi151 · 02-06-2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Jesus predicts his death multiple times.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends.

Thermopylae the battle? Don’t know what you’re talking about there. But Socrates is a horrible example of a martyr. Socrates was just an old dumbass.

It just depends on how loosely you want to use the word Martyr. If you want to use it for everyone who died for something they believed in, or took death before dishonor then fine sure, but you’re going to have to make up a new word for what Jesus did. From my perspective what he did was unique and that uniqueness spread.

Please explain how the story of Jesus' death differs from either the martyrdom of the seven brothers in 2 Maccabees, or the martyrdom of Isaiah in The Martyrdom of Isaiah.

I've already provided 2 Maccabees, here is MoI:

Quote:

Chapter 1:
1. AND it came to pass in the twenty-sixth year of the reign of Hezekiah king of Judah that he called Manasseh his son. Now he was his only one.
2. And he called him into the presence of Isaiah the son of Amoz the prophet, and into the presence of Josab the son of Isaiah, in order to deliver unto him the words of righteousness which the king himself had seen:
3. And of the eternal judgments and torments of Gehenna, and of the prince of this world, and of his angels, and his authorities and his powers.
4. And the words of the faith of the Beloved which he himself had seen in the fifteenth year of his reign during his illness.
5. And he delivered unto him the written words which Samnas the scribe had written, and also those which Isaiah, the son of Amoz, had given to him, and also to the prophets, that they might write and store up with him what he himself had seen in the king's house regarding the judgment of the angels, and the destruction of this world, and regarding the garments of the saints and their going forth, and regarding their transformation and the persecution and ascension of the Beloved.
6. In the twentieth year of the reign of Hezekiah, Isaiah had seen the words of this prophecy and had delivered them to Josab his son. And whilst he (Hezekiah) gave commands, Josab the son of Isaiah standing by.
7. Isaiah said to Hezekiah the king, but not in the presence of Manasseh only did he say unto him: `As the Lord liveth, and the Spirit which speaketh in me liveth, all these commands and these words will be made of none effect by Manasseh thy son, and through the agency of his hands I shall depart mid the torture of my body.
8. And Sammael Malchira will serve Manasseh, and execute all his desire, and he will become a follower of Beliar rather than of me:
9. And many in Jerusalem and in Judea he will cause to abandon the true faith, and Beliar will dwell in Manasseh, and by his hands I shall be sawn asunder.'
10. And when Hezekiah heard these words he wept very bitterly, and rent his garments, and placed earth upon his head, and fell on his face.
11. And Isaiah said unto him: "The counsel of Sammael against Manasseh is consummated: nought will avail thee."
12. And on that day Hezekiah resolved in his heart to slay Manasseh his son.
13. And Isaiah said to Hezekiah: "The Beloved hath made of none effect thy design, and the purpose of thy heart will not be accomplished, for with this calling have I been called and I shall inherit the heritage of the Beloved."

...

Chapter 2:
7. And, when Isaiah, the son of Amoz, saw the lawlessness which was being perpetrated in Jerusalem and the worship of Satan and his wantonness, he withdrew from Jerusalem and settled in Bethlehem of Judah.

...

Chapter 3:
6. And Belchira accused Isaiah and the prophets who were with him, saying: 'Isaiah and those who are with him prophesy against Jerusalem and against the cities of Judah that they shall be laid waste and [against the children of Judah and] Benjamin also that they shall go into captivity, and also against thee, O lord the king, that thou shalt go [bound] with hooks and iron chains':
7. But they prophesy falsely against Israel and Judah.
8. And Isaiah himself hath said: 'I see more than Moses the prophet.'
9. But Moses said: 'No man can see God and live'; and Isaiah hath said: 'I have seen God and behold I live.'
10. Know, therefore, O king, that he is lying. And Jerusalem also he hath called Sodom, and the princes of Judah and Jerusalem he hath declared to be the people of Gomorrah. And he brought many accusations against Isaiah and the prophets before Manasseh.
11. But Beliar dwelt in the heart of Manasseh and in the heart of the princes of Judah and Benjamin and of the eunuchs and of the councilors of the king.

...

Chapter 5:
2. And when Isaiah was being sawn in sunder, Belchira stood up, accusing him, and all the false prophets stood up, laughing and rejoicing because of Isaiah.
3. And Belchira, with the aid of Mechembechus, stood up before Isaiah, [laughing] deriding;
4. And Belchira said to Isaiah: 'Say, "I have lied in all that I have spoken, and likewise the ways of Manasseh are good and right.
5. And the ways also of Belchira and of his associates are good."
6. And this he said to him when he began to be sawn in sunder.
7. But Isaiah was [absorbed] in a vision of the Lord, and though his eyes were open, he saw them (not).
8. And Belchira spoke thus to Isaiah: "Say what I say unto thee and I will turn their hearts, and I will compel Manasseh and the princes of Judah and the people and all Jerusalem to reverence thee.
9. And Isaiah answered and said: "So far as I have utterance [I say]: Damned and accused be thou and all they powers and all thy house.
10. For thou canst not take [from me] aught save the skin of my body."
11. And they seized and sawed in sunder Isaiah, the son of Amoz, with a wooden saw.
12. And Manasseh and Belchira and the false prophets and the princes and the people [and] all stood looking on.
13. And to the prophets who were with him he said before he had been sawn in sunder: "Go ye to the region of Tyre and Sidon; for for me only hath God mingled the cup."
14. And when Isaiah was being sawn in sunder, he neither cried aloud nor wept, but his lips spoke with the Holy Spirit until he was sawn in twain.
- The Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah, ~2nd century BCE

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-06-2007, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Jesus predicts his death multiple times.

The Gospels SAY he predicted his own death. That doesn't mean he actually did it.

Quote:

Thermopylae the battle? Don’t know what you’re talking about there.

300 Spartans fighting what they knew was a suicide mission.

Quote:

But Socrates is a horrible example of a martyr. Socrates was just an old dumbass.

I'm soryy, you're going to have to do better than "he was just an old dumbass" to explain why Socrates does not fit the definition of a martyr.

Quote:

It just depends on how loosely you want to use the word Martyr. If you want to use it for everyone who died for something they believed in, or took death before dishonor then fine sure

That's pretty much the definition.

Quote:

but you’re going to have to make up a new word for what Jesus did. From my perspective what he did was unique and that uniqueness spread.

You have to explain what he did that was unique.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-06-2007, 11:13 AM	#11
Elijah Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MidWest Posts: 1,894	I had this conversation the other day on here and from my POV. Jesus is the first and only true martyr. I don’t know of any pre Christian examples of someone just willingly going to their death like Jesus did. What he did was something new. Saint Stephen is who they call the first martyr but he was just imitating Jesus, but that imitation was enough to convince Paul that he had just seen something real. Paul killed a lot of holy men, but Stephen was the first to die in a way that made him believe that this holy man was actually holy. Conviction is contagious. Jesus -> Stephen -> Paul -> Rome -> the World. + Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

02-06-2007, 11:27 AM	#14
Y.B Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6,457	I'd like to add that Socrates actually died for a cause, whereas according to myth, Jesus didn't really die, except for a weekend. Hardly a sacrifice from an eternal being.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.