Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WVIncagold · 02-28-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

The re-emergence of Israel in 1948 was never prophesied, anywhere in the Bible.

All of the supposed "prophecies" of this (including those you cited) refer to the return from the BABYLONIAN EXILE (or, in some cases, the hoped-for return from the earlier Assyrian exile), and were written around this time.

Please try to check the historical context of these alleged "prophecies", and especially when they were written.

And, incidentally, numerous prophecies that Israel would be "safe forever" after this regathering failed: because the Jews were later scattered for 2000 years by the Diaspora, and their nation destroyed. Again, pay attention to the historical context rather than ripping verses out of the setting of circa 500 BC and applying them to the modern era without considering anything that has happened in between.

The same can be said of any modern nation with a specific "founding day" (e.g. the United States of America).

But look at Israel. British control ceased and America recognized their independence. This all happened within 24 hours.

Not the same as America. America had to be fought for for a long time before we had our day. We didn't just become a nation overnight.

Israel on the other hand, did.

So WW2 had nothing to do with it?

Half-Life · 02-28-2008, 10:27 AM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

But what would this prove?

God provided evidence to those people and some still didn't believe. They crucified him.

If God doing miracles and fulfilling prophecy was all you needed to believe in him, why did so many disbelieve in Him?

Because people are stubborn.

Now, if God came today and showed people evidence like he did back in Bible times, what would that prove? People still wouldn't believe.

We'd probably want him killed as well. Why should god waste his time just to please you?

He already did it once. I'm sorry you want him to keep showing up like some magic fairy.

If a God inspired the Bible, it is reasonable to assume that he is able to do more than he has done to convince people to love and accept him than he has without unfairly interfering with their free will. Otherwise, he would not be a God. Although some people did not accept tangible, firsthand evidence, the texts say that many people did accept tangible, firsthand evidence. Consider the following Scriptures:

John 2:23

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.”

John 3:2

“The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”

John 10:37-38

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”

John 11:43-48

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

John 20:30-31

“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. ”

If God provided those same kinds of evidence today, surely some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, obviously, none of your arguments are valid. My primary position is that if a God exists, he is probably not the God of the Bible. If the universe is naturalistic, or if some other God exists who chose to mimic the ways that things would be if the universe is naturalistic, 1) all religions that have books would be spread entirely by word of mouth, which is the case 2) humans would only able to obtain food through human effort no matter what their worldview is, which is the case, 3) it would not be surprising that the percentage of women who are theists is significantly higher than the percentage of men who are theists in every culture, which is the case, 4) it would not be surprising that the percentage of elderly people who change their worldviews is much smaller than the percentage of younger people who change their worldviews, which is the case, 5) hurricanes would kill people, animals, and plants, and destroy property as if there were not any differences between them, which appears to the case, 6) all tangible benefits would indiscriminately distributed at random according to the laws of physics without any regard for a person's needs, requests, or worldview, and the only benefits that anyone could ask God for and expect to receive would be subjective spiritual/emotional benefits, which appears to be the case, 7) it would not be surprising that fossils and sediments are sorted in ways that are convenient for skeptics, and have convinced some evangelical Christian geologists that a global flood did not occur, which is the case, 8) no religious book would contain any indisputable prophecies, which is the case, and 9) it would not be surprising that 50% of the genome of chimpanzees and humans are identical, which is the case. I am defining an indisputable prophecy as a prophecy that would convince at least 60% of the people in the world that the prophecy was made by a being who might be a God, or who is not a human. An example would be a prediction of when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year. No religious book has a prophecy of that quality.

In my opinion, it is very improbable that a moral God exists who wants people to believe that he exists, and wants people to believe that they know what he wants them to do with their lives, but frequently mimics a naturalistic universe in predictable ways, or mimics some other God who chose to mimic a naturalistic universe, and always makes disputable prophecies, thereby needlessly undermining his attempts to try to convince people to believe that he exists.

OK so let's say god shows up and says "Hi I'm God" and everyone in the world sees him.

Every single person is now a Christian doing Jesus' work?

Half-Life · 02-28-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

But look at Israel. British control ceased and America recognized their independence. This all happened within 24 hours.

Not the same as America. America had to be fought for for a long time before we had our day. We didn't just become a nation overnight.

Israel on the other hand, did.

So WW2 had nothing to do with it?

part of the prophecy.

but, how do you explain God telling the people of Israel that they will be protected?

israel was ATTACKED by close to ten countries after gaining independence and was outnumbered by millions upon millions of people. Yet this tiny peaceful nation won.

How so?

Johnny Skeptic · 02-28-2008, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Ok, so let's say god shows up and says "Hi I'm God" and everyone in the world sees him.

Every single person is now a Christian doing Jesus' work?

Is God able to provide additional evidence that would convince any more people to love him and and accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will?

spin · 02-28-2008, 10:37 AM

Ezekiel was from Judah, not Israel. When he talked about Israel he wasn't talking about Judah. Your statement was:

In Ezekiel 34:13, the prophet said that God would gather the people of Israel scattered throughout the world and bring them back to "their own land."

In fact, as far as we know, not a single descendant of the people of Israel has ever come back to Israel since May 14, 1948. The people of Israel were lost 2500 years ago after having been transported to Assyria to be eventually absorbed into the goyim. The people who have gone to live in the mis-named state of Israel have all been descendants of the people of Judah.

spin

JuliaLink · 02-28-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.
<SNIP>
A. Know that the people of israel would return to their land.

B. Know that the Jews would become more prosperous than their fathers.

C. Know the Jews would be scattered all over the world.

So why aren't the Jews ALL back in Israel?
Seems the prophesy is using the inclusive 'them' and referring to the Jews in their entirety.
If it doesn't so include all, then prophesy would be fulfilled if the people to whom it referred were spread evenly over the earth and also in their ancestral homelands. Kind of Brownian immigration.
I believe we have a Zion in Illinois as well... Are the Jews there home?

And a lot of us are more prosperous than our fathers. Big deal.

Julia

WVIncagold · 02-28-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

No answer huh?

Thought so.

See? God WANTS people to believe in Him out of true love.

He doesn't want to FORCE you to KNOW he exists because that wouldn't prove anything.

You either want God in your life or you don't. Simple as that. No amount of him showing up and shouting from the mountains he is God will make people stop being stubborn and stop scoffing at him.

jesus himself said that heaven and earth shall pass away but my words will never pass away.

2,000 years later his words are still despite everyone hating Christianity and ridiculing it.

Funny, huh? But this is not "evidence" to you. Funny how that works out.

Whom are you directing this at? You do know that this prophecy is for the chosen people the Jews who keep gods law not gentiles who worship the self imposed son of god correct.
I hardly see what this has to do with whether bible god exist or what point your trying to make. If the bible never existed would a bunch of nations converge and give land to the Hebrews for there persecution? how about the fact that the temple mount contains a Muslim temple? In 2500 years the happenstance that the bible might have something that resembles something you may want to read into prophecy. the likelihood is astounding...not. Do you have a true understanding of how long 2500 years is? and it took until 1948 to fulfill this prophecy why? People would stop scoffing Yahweh if he would actually provide some proof as to his existence. The fact that a bunch of zealots who want their land grab to be sanctioned by a governing body to put forth an agenda of their culture and religion? wow that never happens solely out of greed now does it. thats right Gawd must of done it. Sorry i cant envision such rationale. When the Hebrews build their temple and start to sacrifice sheep on the temple mount you may have something but until then this prophesy is being interpreted by Xians to try as a scare tactic that this is the end times. Here is a question. Please explain why god still has not done 60 years later? Why must two current generations pass and still nothing? in our life times another 100 years will have passed and still nothing. why is that?

Half-Life · 02-28-2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Ok, so let's say god shows up and says "Hi I'm God" and everyone in the world sees him.

Every single person is now a Christian doing Jesus' work?

Is God able to provide additional evidence that would convince any more people to love him and and accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will?

How could he do that? it would become force, not belief.

He already came down once. Why do you want Him to keep coming down?

how often should he come? Once a day? Once a month? Once a year?

Roland · 02-28-2008, 10:44 AM

Whooppee! God fulfilled his promise to his people, only AFTER allowing six million of them to be killed in the Holocaust. What a great guy.

Anyone ever consider that the seeming "convergence" might be the result of a simple coincidence? Or that some of the people who pushed for the re-establishment of Israel might have actually been acting on the sense of entitlement occasioned by such perceived prophecies?

Roland · 02-28-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Is God able to provide additional evidence that would convince any more people to love him and and accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will?

How could he do that? it would become force, not belief.

He already came down once. Why do you want Him to keep coming down?

how often should he come? Once a day? Once a month? Once a year?

Why not, if it gets the job done? How about "coming down" in an era less befogged by poor record-keeping and long-lost documents?

02-28-2008, 10:37 AM	#25
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Ezekiel was from Judah, not Israel. When he talked about Israel he wasn't talking about Judah. Your statement was: In Ezekiel 34:13, the prophet said that God would gather the people of Israel scattered throughout the world and bring them back to "their own land." In fact, as far as we know, not a single descendant of the people of Israel has ever come back to Israel since May 14, 1948. The people of Israel were lost 2500 years ago after having been transported to Assyria to be eventually absorbed into the goyim. The people who have gone to live in the mis-named state of Israel have all been descendants of the people of Judah. spin

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02-28-2008, 10:44 AM	#29
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	Whooppee! God fulfilled his promise to his people, only AFTER allowing six million of them to be killed in the Holocaust. What a great guy. Anyone ever consider that the seeming "convergence" might be the result of a simple coincidence? Or that some of the people who pushed for the re-establishment of Israel might have actually been acting on the sense of entitlement occasioned by such perceived prophecies?

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