Nazaroo

You haven't explained at all to me why your 20th century picture of Jesus as a 'cool John Lennon' type dude who had peace-sit ins has anything to do with the real Jesus of the Scriptures, even in any Gospel version.

(1) Jesus drove out the merchants from the temple.

He must have done so with his gang of 12 and apparently about 70 others. This is not the action of a pacifist, and can hardly be denied as an authentic part of His earthly activity.

(2) Then there's Jesus' smart-ass-ness. He fooled with the Pharisees when confronted with demanding questions. "Neither will I tell you..." etc. And He spoke of them to their face in dark muttering parables..."Beware their leaven..." and "The sheep will not listen to a stranger..."

(3) Jesus is Confrontational: He 'eats and drinks', instead of fasting and praying. He does the opposite of John the Baptist, not really to teach a different Way, but just to be 'Contrary' in a way that would incriminate His opponents. The whole gag was so that He could point to them and say, "You have no excuse!"

(4) Jesus is Rude: "Ask My followers what I said. "...He was defiant and hostile.

(5) Jesus is deceptive: "I only spoke publicly, I have said nothing in secret"....Yet He obviously DID.


All these things point to one obvious fact:

Jesus is real.

Jesus was a real man, with balls.

Jesus was a real hero, on a whole new level from Greek myths.

Jesus was the Son of God, in so many ways that even an atheist can call Him that.

Riverwind

I know guys, I can't help myself. But last post.

I just want you to note something, Nez, and that something is to whom most of those acts and comments of Jesus were directed toward. Not the "sinners", Nez, they were directed toward the holier-than-thou, do nothing wrong, do what I say but not what I do, violent conspirators...

Namely the religious fundamentalists and bigots of his own day, not unlike...

Pace

Nazaroo

Isn't it funny but unsurprising that modern liberal humanists imagine Jesus as one of themselves?

That Jesus' main agenda and mission was to talk-down Fundamentalists and religious extremists?

Except there's only one big fucking problem with this quaint little picture.

This is the eye-view of the later Platonic "Greek-philosopher-Christ" church.

The early layers of the Christian tradition portray a different Jesus.

The Jesus of the Gospel of Luke was certainly a Social Gospel Reformer, but hardly a humanist-liberal. He cursed the Rich, and that included a large upper middle-class, who could hardly be called religious 'extremists' or zealots.

The Jesus of Mark is a mysterious Magician-Rabbi, who plays dirty, teaching in parables with an intent to decieve the unworthy. This would be completely intolerable to modern bleeding-heart liberals who are trying to be 'honest' at all costs from their comfy university/academic white middle-class debate-couches.

The Jesus of John is an often angry, bitterly confrontational and anti-temple Cult leader who's megalomania seems hardly under control, unless we take His self-claims seriously, and they are ALL about HIM.

The Jesus of Matthew is a waterred down re-Judaized mainstream Moses who simply re-sells Judaism under a new name, only without the selfish hypocrisy of the Pharisees (the Jewish Racists).

But there is no pacifist Jesus. There's no anti-fundamentalist Jesus. There's no anti-zealot, anti-extremist Jesus. If anything, Jesus is way off the deep end in all these categories.

He warns (according to Matthew) that "not even a dotting of an i or crossing of a t" will pass from the LAW/Torah. That's as Southern Baptist as a man can get.

He tells His followers (Luke) to buy swords, cause they're gonna need em! Just as in the Old Religion, there is no blood-guilt for self-defence, and according to Jesus, this would even include fighting during the Sabbath.

Jesus embraces zealots without even a scolding, and saves all his vindictive venomous energy for the Pharisees ("Separitists"). While Jesus is clearly anti-Ku Klux Klan, he is apparently just as heartily pro defense contract.



So, rather than have a white middle-class North American scold me for not being 'Christian enough', meaning not being a liberal humanist semi-agnostic like the Jesus of his University Comparative Religions course said He was, or like his United Church pro-gay Seminary instructor told him,

I think I will prefer the historical Jesus as portrayed in the actual Gospels, even if I were to choose to be an atheist. At least its real.

Doug Shaver

Yep. Just like bigoted, reactionary, fascist assholes imagine Jesus as one of themselves.

Toto

Nazaroo's rant against Metzger with associated posts has been split off and locked and sent to ~Elsewhere~ for a lack of serious content, not to mention its general inflammatory nature.

Nazaroo

There. I think you've hit the nail on the head. The problem is, everyone wants to treat the NT portrait of Jesus like a mirror.

Instead of seeing Him as He is, they insist on seeing Him as they want him to be, or dread Him to be.

And most importantly, they only see Him as far as their limited experience and imagination can take them.

Only a disinterested scientist will have any chance of seeing the Jesus of the NT as He really is.

And that just about excludes everyone else.

Apikorus

Yeah I often think of Jesus as an atheist Jewish physicist.

Nazaroo

Nazaroo: There goes an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.

Apikorus: How do you know me?

Nazaroo: I saw you under the fig tree.

N/A

jgibson000

You have previously accused several posters here of hijacking the thread and moving it off topic and not being "scientific", excoriating them for doing what they shouldn't be doing given the OP.

In the light of this, could you please explain how you justify your last dozen or so posts (including your Metzger rant)?

JG

Nazaroo

They accused themselves, by posting trash.

The record of garbage posts speaks for itself.

And yes, I made complaints periodically, to no avail.

Sure.

In Game Theory, we call it the 'Tit for Tat' strategem.

It guarantees a win for the T4T group against competing organisms in a random confrontation environment.

Its the most successful survival strategy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat