aa5874

In order to reconstruct the past it is a MUST that credible sources be employed. We have no other choice.

Credible sources is the Fundamental basis for History.

ApostateAbe cannot employ known fiction stories with FAKE authors and unknown date of authorship as sources for an historical Jesus.

ApostateAbe has VIOLATED the most fundamental priniciples of history.

At every level of the reconstruction of the past CREDIBLE sources are MANDATORY.

Please, let us STOP the absurd theories based on sources that ApostateAbe himself have REJECTED.

As soon as ApostateAbe claimed his Jesus was a doomsday cult leader then he DISCREDITED the Canon as most unreliable and historically inaccurate.

Remarkably, the very Discredited Canon is the same Canon that ApostateAbe uses to claim Jesus was a doomsday cult leader.

No such doomsday character is in the Canon. ApostateAbe's Imagination has run wild.

sotto voce

This axe does not denote doomsday. It represents the 'sword' brought, not by John, but by Jesus, earlier mentioned by Simeon:

'"See, this child is destined to cause the fall and rise of many in Israel, and as a sign to be opposed— and a sword will cut through even your own soul— to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."'

This was John saying, "It's crunch time. Time to make up your minds." That's why he baptised.

This is of course taken to refer to the transfiguration whose account immediately follows. It therefore would connect the just-predicted death of Jesus with its causation of heavenly glory; of eternal benison via that death, which was very likely to be Jesus' purpose, rather than making any sort of prophecy of a second coming, which was anyway a side issue. The context is Mk 8:31, not 8:38. However, this promise could also be taken to mean that those then present who were to who die in faith may have experienced as Stephen apparently did:

'But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."'

So there is no indication here of an imminent second coming.

But they are not in the context of imminent apocalyptic prophecies. In fact, Jesus dismissed the whole notion of exact prediction or prophecy:

"No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come."' Mk 13:32-33 NIV

Any who make exact prediction of a second coming are therefore too ignorant for serious notice. Not even Jesus as temporarily manifest deity knew when the end would come, though of course 'Jesus' as supernal Father knew— and he wasn't letting on to anyone, anywhere. The textual evidence is that Jesus' sole purpose in his earthly manifestation was to make a second coming possible. It could not even be entertained without his death as prerequisite. So the doomsday cult leader hypothesis is actually about as far from representing the full text as it is possible to get.

aa5874

Again, you cannot establish that gMark is an historical account. You cannot establish that the author of gMark was a contemporary of Pilate, Caiaphas, and John the Baptist.

You are making PRESUMPTIONS.

The past cannot be reconstructed from Presumptions derived from FAKE unknown authorship, fiction stories and Implausible events.

You are VIOLATING the principles of history.

Only Credible sources can be relied on for the reconstruction of the past.

In the Canon, Jesus was the Son of a Ghost and ascended to heaven in a cloud.

outhouse

theres alot to cover so i'll break it down one step at a time


while I agree that JtB was a doomsday cult leader, I think the context has been skewed through cross cultural oral tradition. we have to carefully extract what it means and at this point scholars are pretty divided on "the kingdom of god's" meaning.


we have JtB who is a anti-society leader probably with a zealot background. He has no money and therfor we know he doesnt pay taxes. he is said to eat wild honey and bugs to survive while living outdoors wearing a camel tunic which amounts to a burlap sack.

Galilee was a hotbed of zealotry and while jesus was a child and JtB lived, there was a tax war in which many were murdered 2000 ish and another 6000 sent to slavery. JtB was a survivor of this and probably influenced his teachings.

with this in mind im trying to figure out if the roman version of "coming kingdom of god" was more allegory for knowing that another tax war was coming. They also knew using violence against romans was the same as suicide, but suicide was better then feeding the roman machine with tax money and the stravation and disease they faced if they did play the roman oppression game.

So here is JtB out in the woods teaching semi peaceful tax evasion to jews, teaching them if they had nothing, there was nothing to tax and thus not feeding the roman army knowing that another tax war was going to happen whether they liked it or not and that soon most of them would be dead.

and when the temple fell, he was right.

These poor peasants had no real leadership under roman oppression and the currupt jewish governement raping tithes and taxes using roman muscle to bilk these poor people.

so these cult leaders didnt have a hard time finding a audience and follower's




Understanding the political climate for oppressed jews is the first step to understanding JtB and why one is forced to do what he does.

outhouse

and this just is more proof of my point.

they knew another war was coming. there was no way around it and their jewish lives were in fact living on the edge of death, this all known from childhood.


But this was written after the temple already fell.

So theres a good chance that the whole "kingdon of god" and doomsday concept evolved heavily as it changed to a more roman based religion then jewish [cross cultural oral tradition]


and thats exactly what we see in scripture, contradicting views as you have pointed out.

aa5874

I won't allow you to use Myth Fables for history. This is WHOLLY unacceptable at any level.

The conception of the Jesus character was Published in antiquity and was accepted that he was the CHILD of a Ghost without a human father.

It is just absurd to Cherry Pick isolated passages from the NT without first showing it is claimed Mary was with child of the Holy Ghost, that Jesus WALKED on water, Transfigured, resurrected and Ascended in a cloud.

I no longer accept Myth Fables with Fake authors and composed sometime in the 2nd century or later as history.

Please, this is the 21st century.

We longer use Myth Fables to reconstruct the past.

outhouse

I should have also stated JtB has many traits from the Essenes as well, but based on geographic located and the writings based on jesus were left wiith, I think Zeolots edges out the Essenes influence.

Now it must be noted that there were different types of Zealots and Essenes amnd you cant lump anyone in these groups with the small amount of historicity of theseindividuals were dealing with.

outhouse

and AA you have no place in this thread at all.

even if we granted you all mythology. you dont have the knowledge of that or the cultural anthropology of first century Galilee to participate. But mostly your lacking the communication skills required to debate properly.

its why your ignored

James The Least

No, it doesn't. Apocalyptic came into Judaism through earlier Babylonian and Persian religious concepts. The idea of a "final judgement" and the end of the world are very old. There are some good essays on the earliest apocalyptic literature in Volume 1 of "The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism."

ApostateAbe

I stand corrected!