Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ktotwf · 02-01-2011, 02:28 PM

The Catholic Church has always avoided speaking as to the Shroud's legitimacy, which leads me to believe that they have evidence it is fake.

Minimalist · 02-01-2011, 06:45 PM

As Lombatti himself notes, the Shroud Crowd is hard to convince.

angelo · 02-03-2011, 04:04 AM

Leonardo DaVinci would be rolling around laughing his butt off. if still alive today.

Wayne Delia · 02-03-2011, 06:51 AM

John 19
40 Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.

John 20
6 And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying there,

7 and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.

Verse 7 is the "smoking gun" verse. Jesus' head was wrapped separately, and after the resurrection, the head cloth was stored separately from the strips of linen making up the body wrap. In fact, the Shroud of Turin is a single strip including the head image, so it's curious why the Bible would specify a plural "strips" of linen.

Juststeve · 02-03-2011, 07:12 AM

Wayne gives far more credence to the description in John than it merits, I think.

Steve

Minimalist · 02-03-2011, 07:52 AM

True but Shimon Gibson's find of an actual first-century burial shroud in Jerusalem shows that the description is accurate. Of course, all that really means is that whoever wrote "G-John" knew something about Jewish burial rituals.

Juststeve · 02-03-2011, 09:30 AM

Has anyone seen how the Shroudies deal with the fact that if the Shroud is authentic then the description in John is erroneous? Perhaps not all the Shroudies are inerrantists but it is my impression that some are.

Steve

Toto · 02-03-2011, 10:03 AM

I don't think that Shroudies are inerrantists. Inerrantists don't need any evidence beyond the Bible to prove what they know in their hearts is true.

angelo · 02-04-2011, 04:23 AM

Liberal, modernist christians such as John Domenic Crossan claim crucified felons were not buried at all, but left on the tree as an example to others. Left to the elements and wildlife to feast on for days. Or were buried in a common shallow grave where wild dogs would dig up the remains to feed on.
If this is what happened to Jesus, there never was a body to cover in a rag and placed in a tomb. That's assuming he existed in the first place.

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02-01-2011, 02:28 PM	#11
Ktotwf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,936	The Catholic Church has always avoided speaking as to the Shroud's legitimacy, which leads me to believe that they have evidence it is fake.

02-01-2011, 06:45 PM	#12
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	As Lombatti himself notes, the Shroud Crowd is hard to convince.

02-03-2011, 04:04 AM	#13
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	Leonardo DaVinci would be rolling around laughing his butt off. if still alive today.

02-03-2011, 06:51 AM	#14
Wayne Delia Contributor Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Posts: 10,056	John 19 40 Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. John 20 6 And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. Verse 7 is the "smoking gun" verse. Jesus' head was wrapped separately, and after the resurrection, the head cloth was stored separately from the strips of linen making up the body wrap. In fact, the Shroud of Turin is a single strip including the head image, so it's curious why the Bible would specify a plural "strips" of linen.

02-03-2011, 07:12 AM	#15
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Wayne gives far more credence to the description in John than it merits, I think. Steve

02-03-2011, 07:52 AM	#16
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	True but Shimon Gibson's find of an actual first-century burial shroud in Jerusalem shows that the description is accurate. Of course, all that really means is that whoever wrote "G-John" knew something about Jewish burial rituals.

02-03-2011, 09:30 AM	#17
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Has anyone seen how the Shroudies deal with the fact that if the Shroud is authentic then the description in John is erroneous? Perhaps not all the Shroudies are inerrantists but it is my impression that some are. Steve

02-03-2011, 10:03 AM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I don't think that Shroudies are inerrantists. Inerrantists don't need any evidence beyond the Bible to prove what they know in their hearts is true.

02-04-2011, 04:23 AM	#19
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	Liberal, modernist christians such as John Domenic Crossan claim crucified felons were not buried at all, but left on the tree as an example to others. Left to the elements and wildlife to feast on for days. Or were buried in a common shallow grave where wild dogs would dig up the remains to feed on. If this is what happened to Jesus, there never was a body to cover in a rag and placed in a tomb. That's assuming he existed in the first place.

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