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steve_bnk · 02-20-2010, 04:45 PM

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Loomis · 02-20-2010, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

He was calling the Jews back to the old ways, so to speak, he was not inventing anything new or extreme.

But there are plenty passages that disagree with this.

So what are you going to do? Ignore them?

steve_bnk · 02-20-2010, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

He was calling the Jews back to the old ways, so to speak, he was not inventing anything new or extreme.

But there are plenty passages that disagree with this.

So what are you going to do? Ignore them?

The fact that that the gospels as we have them are not perfectly logcialy consistent does not mean you can't make valid inferences.

As to JC being more a political figure, you only have to look at the mid-east today and the mix/range of Islamic fundamentalists all railing against the 'empire', all using religion and Islamic traditions in some form to make their cases. Juxtapose Jews/Rome and modern Islam/western capitalism.

You can also look at modern Israel where Jews range from social particpants in religious ritual to the extreme Jews who do not accept the current state of Israel.

It is not difficult to profile what a peson on which the myths grew was like.

aa5874 · 02-20-2010, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, ISN'T your radical political rabbi an HJ, or are you talking about a heavenly radical political rabbi?

But, there is already a documented case of an apocalyptic character in the writings of Josephus. So, we have an idea of the manner in which apocalyptic Jews were treated by their own people.

Jesus son of Ananus was beaten to a pulp and declared a madmen for predicting some calamity for the Jerusalem.

It is very likely that many Jews after having read or heard the Hebrew Scripture or Septuagint may have also believed that some calamity was predicted by the prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah and others

It must be understood that the apocalyptic words of Jesus was LIFTED straight out of writings available for hundreds of years.

Jews knew about these prohecies long, long time before the Jesus stories were ever written. Jesus's so-called prophecies were NOT anything new.

Jesus probably would have been considered a babbler repeating the same apocalyptic themes that have failed to have materialised for hundreds of years.

I know the commonilty between the NT words and the OT, however is it not just as likley that a politicaly motivated Jew would learn the Jewish scriptures and make use of them? Not much differnt than some of our Christian politicians who want to sway Christians. Invoking the OT prophets is stock and trade in Chrtistianity today.

I would think there would be a few more than one crazy Jew beaten by a mob, that kind of punishment was comonplace in their culture.

How does Josephus pass for documented historical evidence?

My point is that the words of Jesus most likely had no impact on Jewish society since he was basically "Parroting" passages already known to the Jews for hundreds of years which so far had failed to pass.

Based on Josephus, people like Jesus son of Ananus were just nuisances or crazy people. Jesus of Nazareth would probably be called a crazy man once he claimed he would be killed and be resurrected on the third day.

steve_bnk · 02-20-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

I know the commonilty between the NT words and the OT, however is it not just as likley that a politicaly motivated Jew would learn the Jewish scriptures and make use of them? Not much differnt than some of our Christian politicians who want to sway Christians. Invoking the OT prophets is stock and trade in Chrtistianity today.

I would think there would be a few more than one crazy Jew beaten by a mob, that kind of punishment was comonplace in their culture.

How does Josephus pass for documented historical evidence?

My point is that the words of Jesus most likely had no impact on Jewish society since he was basically "Parroting" passages already known to the Jews for hundreds of years which so far had failed to pass.

Based on Josephus, people like Jesus son of Ananus were just nuisances or crazy people. Jesus of Nazareth would probably be called a crazy man once he claimed he would be killed and be resurrected on the third day.

Agreed on the overall Jewish impact, other radicals were outright militants against the Romans. He would have likley been one of many and did not merit honorable mention in either Jewish or Roman records. However the early 'Christians' were Jews, were they not?

Not just seen as crazy, his alleged claiming to be god or a son of god would have been blasphemy of the highest order, a death penalty offense. According to my NSRV commentary in his original language some of his quips would have had the rythem of modern puns, very roughly think Jay Leno monologues and his political barbs.. From what is given he was intentionaly and with forethought provoking the powerful Jewish religious elite, he would have been directly challenging their political power.

He always seems to be on the move on the outskirts of the population centers

gdeering · 02-20-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

]
.... his original language some of his quips would have had the rythem of modern puns, very roughly think Jay Leno monologues and his political barbs..

Wow Steve so cool, do U have any evidence for this? What is the original language?

Gregg

arnoldo · 02-20-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Anything is possible, but given the times, the general literacy level, and comunications of the times, I'd say the odds of a conspiracy that fabricated the gosples out of nothing is far less probable.

No conspiracy is required. The gospels were not fabricated out of "nothing" - they were based on the Septuagint.

And what about the times? Does it make sense to have an apocalyptic preacher predict the destruction of the Temple in 40 CE? What happened at that time that would make sense of that prediction?

Considering that the jewish temple was previously destroyed by the Babylonians, defiled be the Greeks, it wouldn't be necessarily shocking to predict that it would be destroyed by the Romans.

arnoldo · 02-20-2010, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdeering

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

]
.... his original language some of his quips would have had the rythem of modern puns, very roughly think Jay Leno monologues and his political barbs..

Wow Steve so cool, do U have any evidence for this? What is the original language?

Gregg

The original language is aramaic.

Quote:

Aramaic is a Semitic language, a family of languages where all words come from three-letter roots. As a result, speakers of the language employ puns that play off of roots with similar sounding consonants, or with the same consonants re-arranged.

For example, in the Great Children of Abraham Debate within the Gospel of John:

John 8:39
They retorted and said to him:
"Our abba (father) is Abraham!"
Jesus says to them:
"If you are Abraham's children, `abad (do) as Abraham would `abad (do)!"

http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Artic...imacy_wiki.htm

steve_bnk · 02-20-2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdeering

Wow Steve so cool, do U have any evidence for this? What is the original language?

Gregg

The original language is aramaic.

Quote:

Aramaic is a Semitic language, a family of languages where all words come from three-letter roots. As a result, speakers of the language employ puns that play off of roots with similar sounding consonants, or with the same consonants re-arranged.

For example, in the Great Children of Abraham Debate within the Gospel of John:

John 8:39
They retorted and said to him:
"Our abba (father) is Abraham!"
Jesus says to them:
"If you are Abraham's children, `abad (do) as Abraham would `abad (do)!"

http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Artic...imacy_wiki.htm

Only the anotation and commentary that goes with the NSRV.

The commentery is lengthy and in fine print.

Here is something

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/Genesis_texts.html

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=546886

'..51 posts - 34 authors - Last post: Jan 8
It might turn out to be less trouble to learn to read ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. ... I've had the most luck with the New Revised Standard Version, ..... There's a poetry/rhyme/pun in the Hebrew that vanishes in the English. ... You don't have to deny Jesus Christ to read the Old Testament ...'

google 'nrsv christ aramaic puns rhymes'

steve_bnk · 02-20-2010, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

No conspiracy is required. The gospels were not fabricated out of "nothing" - they were based on the Septuagint.

And what about the times? Does it make sense to have an apocalyptic preacher predict the destruction of the Temple in 40 CE? What happened at that time that would make sense of that prediction?

Considering that the jewish temple was previously destroyed by the Babylonians, defiled be the Greeks, it wouldn't be necessarily shocking to predict that it would be destroyed by the Romans.

Of course, likewise it souldn't be shocking to predict we are running out of oil, with no one really paying serious attention....prophets of impending doom in all civilizations seem to be ignored or dismissed.

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02-20-2010, 04:45 PM	#21
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	The works of Josephus can be found for free at http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page author search josephus flavius

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