aa5874

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition. If Jesus was only human then entire Gospels are fundamentally undeniable fiction.

What was the purpose then of writing about a man who claimed he would be killed and be raised from the dead after three days when the author would have known that people do not come back to life after they have been dead for three days?

The answer is obvious.

The authors of the NT were writing about an entity they believed or wanted their audience to believe to be divine or supernatural.

In the NT, Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God, he walked on water, he cursed a tree and the tree died, he talked to people born deaf and dumb and they were made well, he drowned devils,( devils have lungs?), fed 5000 people with 2 fish and 5 loaves, he transfigured, resurrected and ascended through the clouds.

If Jesus was human then these events simply did not occur.

It is most obvious that the authors of the NT believed Jesus was a divine or supernatural creature or wanted their audience to believe the same.

Once the divine characteristic is removed then the Jesus character was an utter failure.

But, not only is the Jesus story an utter failure if just a man, but his deification becomes absolutely bizarre.

In the NT, Jesus was killed and was buried. The disciples went into hiding.

On the first day of the week, about three days after his death, some women, perhaps Peter too, went to the burial site and the body of Jesus is missing.

Once Jesus was human, the disciples will not see the body of Jesus again, his body is rotting away somewhere.

The disciples have serious problems, they do not know where the body of Jesus is so they cannot claim he resurrected. Perhaps the Sanhedrin have moved the body.

The disciples now must flee Judea to save their own lives

The Jesus organisation has crashed, totally detroyed. They cannot come out of hiding. Jesus did not resurrect, they don't even know where his body is located.

The disciples are wanted dead or alive. Jesus was HORRIBLE NEWS to the disciples.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

arnoldo

Using your logic, the mythical cartoon character Popeye(MP) could not be based on a real historical person (HP). Yet there is evidence that a HP did exist.

aa5874

I never investigated Popeye.

Was Popeye described as the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God who killed tress by simply talking to them?

Did Popeye walk on water, witnessed by the 1st bishop of Rome?

Did Popeye transfigure and his face glittered like the sun?

Did he resurrect and ascend to heaven?

And did Popeye teach his disciples that he would be killed and be raised on the third day?

Please tell me about Popeye on another thread. Right now I am dealing with the most senseless proposition, the HJ.

If Jesus was human and taught his disciples that he would be raised within 72 hours of his death, what do you think happened after he died and the disciples were in hiding?

What good news did the disciples have for the populace?

aa5874

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition. If Jesus was human then the entire NT is all fiction and a pack of lies.

In the NT, Jesus taught his disciples that he would be killed and be raised on the third day. When he was arrested, his disciples fled and went into hiding. Jesus was killed, after deemed a blasphemer, and buried, three days later the disciples are still in hiding and his body has disappeared.

What GOOD NEWS do the disciples have for the Jews and the Gentiles?

They have no NEWS.

Now, in the NT, it is claimed that Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God, but if Jesus was only human such a claim would be totally stupid and ridiculous since it was likely that the father and mother of Jesus would be found in the public records or known to the populace.

When did the disciples come out of hiding to propagate the vicious lies or false information that Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God and rose from the dead?

show_no_mercy

Separating the religious from the political is actually a modern phenomenon. There wasn't really any difference between "religion" and "nation" in the 1st century. If you were a Greek by nationality, you practiced the Greek religion. If you were a Roman, you practiced Roman religion. Christianity was unique in this regard because it was a religion without a nation.

Christianity is actually the first religion to separate nationalism from religion, and is why many Christians were persecuted.

David_M

Sorry but this entire argument is just distant psychoanalysis. It is irrelevant what you think about why an HJ might make a claim - all that is relevant is what a Historical Jesus may have believed personally or what was later attributed to an HJ after his death.

Prophets and holy men have a long documented history of making claims that seem absurd when examined today but they were believed at the time to be plausible claims of future events.

Only one of 2 things is required: One is that a HJ personally believed that he would be resurrected and thus made those claims. The other would be that the words were attributed to an HJ by later followers to bolster the impact of their new religion, heck it could even be that the claims were inserted after rumours of Jesus being seen alive started to circulate as one of those "retroactive prophecies" that crop up in the bible when past events are being recorded.

History is replete with "prophets" who make claims that, when examined rationally, discredit them. Joseph Smith has already been mentioned - how many people here thing HJS actually existed even though some really outlandish claims are attributed to him?

As to an execution of a jewish "prophet" on or around Passover it would make sense as a Roman method of manifesting their power and control as rulers of the area, especially if they opposed the religious teachings of an HJ or any detsabilising effect he was having on the existing power structure.

And repeating "The HJ is senseless" in nearly every post does not make it true.

aa5874

It can be argued successfully that what you think of the HJ is irrelevant when in the NT it is recorded that Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God, who was with the Devil on the pinnacle of the Temple, walked on water, was transfigured, resurrected and ascended through the clouds.

What you believe is irrelevant unless you are prepared to provide some source of antiquity to support your belief.

Now, I have ALREADY written that Jesus of the NT could have only been believed to exist or was intended to be believed to exist.

An historical Jesus make no sense whatsoever. An HJ accomplishes nothing but death and total stupidity.

Based on the NT, the so-called Jesus taught his disciples that he would be killed and be raised on the third day. Jesus was killed and was buried according to the Gospel story.

His disciples fled when he was arrested and went into hiding. On the 1st day of the week, some women and perhaps Peter went to the burial site and the body is missing.

What happened from that point?

When did the disciples come out of hiding?

What GOOD NEWS did the disciples have about Jesus while they were in hiding?

The Jesus story only makes sense if Jesus was believed to exist, not if he actually existed and taught his disciples that he would be killed and resurrect.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.


And, that is exactly what the evidence suggests. Jesus was only a BELIEF or intended to be believed.

Now, this is one of two things REQUIRED OF YOU: Please provide the evidence or source of antiquity that there was an actual HJ who personally believed he would resurrect.

This is another of the two things that is REQUIRED OF YOU: Please provide the evidence that there was an actual HJ and that he did have later followers who attributed words to the him.

You are required to produce evidence or credible information, not your imagination.

Please show me where Joseph Smith"s birth was described like Homer's Achilles or Jesus of the NT.

Was Joseph Smith described as the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God, who walked on water, transfigured, resurrected and ascended through clouds?

Please look at the biography of Joseph Smith. Was he ever deified and had the power to forgive sins?

But, what you have written cannot be supported by any source of antiquity, Pilate found no fault with Jesus. He was not a destabilising character, he payed his taxes and encouraged his disciple to pay dues to Roman authorities. Jesus even payed the taxes for one of his disciples.

The execution of Jesus made no sense, Pilate would have to make himself a wholly unjust idiot by executing an innocent man and releasing a man who was a murderer and guilty of sedition. Barabbas may have wanted to murder Pilate or Herod.

Well, I repeat it because the evidence or sources of antiquity support the theory that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

The authors of the NT and the Church writers REPEATEDLY wrote that Jesus was the Holy Ghost of God, tempted by the Devil on the Temple, walked on water, transfigured, resurrected and ascended through the clouds and provided witnesses, including the supposed Mary and the 1st bishop of Rome.

These things are recorded in antiquity.

Now, do you have anything to REPEAT about HJ that you know is true?

What do you have recorded in antiquity on the HJ?

NOTHING.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

Marcion appears to be right since the 2nd century. Jesus could have only been believed to be real and he was not from the God of the Jews.

aa5874

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

Jesus taught his disciples that he would be killed and raised the third day. His disciples fled the scene of his arrest and went into hiding after he was crucified, and buried. Those who visited the burial site could not locate the body of Jesus.

Can anyone tell me what happened after the disciples went into hiding?

The disciples do not know what happened to the body of Jesus, they were in hiding since the night he was arrested.

But, the senselessness of the HJ is not only about his teaching of his resurrection. There is more.

In the NT, Jesus is said to have spoken to the multitudes of Jews in parables, in fact, the authors of the Synoptics claimed he spoke to the multitudes of Jews ONLY in parables.

This is the author of gMatthew

Matthew 13:34 - This is Jesus in gMark .

Mr 4:11 - According to the so-called Jesus, ONLY his disciples would know the meaning of the parables, but perhaps he did not remember Judas, the betrayer, one of his disciples.

But, the reason given by Jesus for talking in parables must be the most dumbest. The senselessness of the statement by Jesus is beyond belief, outright stupidity.

This is the so-called Jesus in gMark about the reason for parables.

Mark 4.12
Now, once Jesus explained the meaning of the parables to his disciples, he must have known or was expected to know that when he was dead that the very disciples would explain the parables to the very same Jews and they would be converted and their sins forgiven them.

How could Jesus be so dumb? The Jesus story is too dumb to be true. HJ should be awarded the dumbest deity award.

Matthew 13:13 - Jesus is dead, his body is missing and he only spoke to the Jews in parables. The disciples are in hiding. The sins of the Jews will not be forgiven.

Jesus was dead wrong, he is irrelevant, he is too dumb, too blind, too deaf to understand.

The Jews at around 30 CE followed the Laws of the God of Moses and the Temple was still standing. The Jews had provisions for the forgiveness of sins hundreds of years before Jesus and his parables.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition, his disciples must still be in hiding.

The HJ would be horrible news to the disciples and the Jews.

David_M

Did I say I had any particular belief about an HJ or a GJ.

But you still don't get it do you, what you and I believe now by applying modern skepticism about what an HJ believed some 2000 years ago is irrelevant, all that is relevant is what an HJ may have believed.

I don't have to provide any sources because you are the person making the claim that an HJ is senseless because you think some claims attributed to Jesus in the NT sound illogical to you. You are the person who has to provide sources and a starting point would be that you have to establish that everything that you think is senseless was actualy claimed by an HJ, you must rule out later additions or changes by his followers before the first Gospels were written and during later rewrites and translations.

All I need to do is provide logical examples that cast doubt in your argument.

Well you have claimed this but have provided no sources to back this up. It's just a possible that he was a scam artist who made stuff up because it sounded good or that he was a bit if a nutter who really, truly, believed that he as the son of God, had received divine revelation, was tasked with spreading a new religious message and would be resurrected after his death.

In your view and not backed up by any in depth analysis, its just as possible that an HJ actually believed, and claimed, he would be resurrected because he thought it would happen.

And the implication of this need be no more than that Jesus believed he would indeed be resurrected, in fact now would be a good time to establish without any doubt that the pre-death claims relate to a physical resurrection with HJ walking around Jerusalem rather than a spiritual one to join God in heaven, which would be at odds with the Jewish beliefs of the time.

Its possible that HJ was in fact claiming that after his death he would go to heaven rather than sleep in Sheol.

So when a religious leader is arrested and executed the followers go in to hiding, in what way would this not be in accord with human nature.

They were in hiding, why would they be spreading good news?

Or the Jesus story makes sense if Jesus thought this stuff was actually true and claims of events after his death were added by followers to confirm their own bias and beliefs.

Or its a sensible propostion when just arguing about human motivation and belief, which is all that you are doing - nothing in your argument hinges on there being any independent historical evidence for an HJ, in fact its just an argument from incredulity. You cannot think of a reason why someone would make such claims so anyone recorded as making such claims must be an impossibility.

You have presented no evidence, only an interpretation of some bible verses and a whole lot of weak logic.

Don't need to, the burden of proof is on you to show that its not possible for a relogious leader to make such a claim, and you have come nowhere close to establishing this.

Don't need to, I am not claiming there was an HJ (or rather a HJ-GJ cross which is how you seem to take it), you are the one making claims and I am the one raising objections. Once you have provided any sources (because you haven't so far) I will consider looking for sources to counter them.


You really don't get how this works, you are making the positive claim so you have to provide evidence that contradicts any contervailing argument, all I need to do is poke holes in your argument.


Why? Of what relevance would such a description be.


No. But he claimed to have met and talked to a frigging Angel who passed on divine revelation to him as recorded in the Book of Mormon, if you don't think that this is an outlandish and irrational claim please say so.

Joseph Smith is a recent example of self-proclaimed prohets making grand claims about religious events, that one example puts a huge burden on you to establish that it is not possible that an HJ was akin to Joseph Smith and made claims because he personally believed them to be true.


No. But he didn't make that specific claim so your point remains irrelevant, he did claim to be a prophet who revealed a message from God though (and there are people around today claiming they ARE the son of god).


As has been pointed out to you he was a destablising influence when it came to the extant Jewish power structure that operated under Roman rule and it was they, according to the NT, who pushed for him to be punished.

Pilate could execute who the hell he wanted because he was in charge and the Romans could be very brutal when they felt civil stability might be threatened, it was the Jewish power bloc who petitioned Pilate to act against Jesus because they thought he was causing trouble. All Pilate had to do was agree that the situation was potentially destabilising amongst the Jews.



So what, humans routinely say stuff that dos not bear up to rational scrutiny because they do believe it is true.


What do you have? NOTHING.

All you have is an argument from incredulity based solely on personal motivations of who passed out of history 2000 years ago.


Your argument is a SENSELESS proposition, based as it is on interpreting human motivation alone. If you want to argue against an HJ the dearth of any mention of him outside the NT is a much better starting point.

Cite to back that up because I severely doubt that the first claim is accurate. As far as I am aware Marcion taught that Jesus was real and was the saviour sent by God, but that God was not Yahweh. Marcionites were Docetic which does mean that they thought that there was a real Jesus (just that his physical formn was an illusion).

David_M

Stop reposting exactly the same arguments time and again and start actually responding to points and objections made in other people's posts.

So you don't like parables and mysticism, thats fine but to claim that this somehow invalidates the possibility of an HJ ignores millenia of religious teachings and human nature.

People used stories to teach and inform throughout history.

Wrong, all it says is that the disciples would have direct knowledge but that the same knowledge would be taught to outsiders through the use of parables.