skepticalbip

........................................:notworthy :..........................................

Great, I stand in awe because I am well aware of what is required to get a "real PHD". There were two others in our working group who also had their PHDs in physics but who were uncomfortable being addressed as doctor. They prefered Bob and John - both great guys. It was just this one guy, though obviously quite intelligent and knowledgable, that could get under someone's skin by always correcting them when they addressed him only with his name without including "doctor'.

Toto

If you are not going to use the chronology of the Bible or the description of Sodom in the Bible, what's the point of talking about Sodom? It exists only in the Bible.

Stevens is not going to appeal to the divine imperative of the Bible because of the game that he is playing - pretending to do secular work that confirms the idea of the Bible as an accurate portrayal of history - which will lead to more tourist revenues for Jordan.

Go to Bolen's blog for more criticism of Collins' work.

credoconsolans

That's because you have to rely on a lack of extensive reporting and illiterate populations and tiny dissemination of news.

Maybe word of mouth would spread news about any disaster, but without extensive travel and most populations being illiterate, they couldn't write anything down about it.


I'm not sure what evidence they're pointing to, but the respected archaeologist Mary Beard also mentions a possible winter date of the eruption, but she concludes that she's basing this on very little evidence - lack of braziers found (indicating that it was cold and refugees took them with them to keep warm) and people wearing multiple layers of clothing (too hot if it was August). She concedes that people who had time to pack would take their braziers and anyone who scavenged the site later, would also take them as they did most all furniture and fixtures. And of course, if anyone is trying to evacuate through a hailstorm of debris, no matter the temperature, a person will pile on protective clothing.

semiopen

I took a tour in December and the guide mentioned that the people instantly died, but she also didn't mention the heat that the wiki discusses. Still a lot of bodies are found in positions which suggest they died without being able to run or even react.

My point for bringing this up was that it probably was more serious on many levels than Sodom, yet the place was lost, and only a few scattered (and dubious as you point out) mentions survive.

Given this in such an advanced culture, it is absurd to consider Sodom a legend with a grain of truth. My own guess is that the environment of the place suggests a story like this, not to mention the Lot's wife type statues.

semiopen

FWIW, even Paineful has stopped calling Stevens Dr. A major achievement. On the other hand, I thought this was one of the most spectacular defeats of an OP I've witnessed here, but he is still showing some signs of life.

stephan huller

I misread the post. I thought it was 'What Happened to Sodomy.' I was going to pass on to people a few links ...

ThePainefulTruth

The difference is between the chronology of a 6000 year old Earth and men who live hundreds of years vs the chronology of dates and geography uncovered by scientific archaeology. Bolen is an obvious fundamentalist, creationist quack.

As for the link, only a creationist would offer this (literally):

Fortunately, the Truth depends on something other than pretension and puffery.

Toto

OK - forget about Bolen, although Collins also gets all of his pointers from his reading of what he calls the Old Testament.

If you throw out the Biblical chronology, what's left of Sodom? If you find a city among many that was destroyed by fire, what makes that the historical Sodom?

semiopen

I think spelling truth with a capital T when discussing what is essentially an academic issue is pretentious.

Regarding Puffery I'm afraid I don't follow.

From a technical perspective

Weren't you saying earlier that Dr Steve was a world class Archeology guy? That seems to be somewhat puffed.

It seems that pretension and puffery would be much more accurately tied to your posts.

Further, (although Toto, seems to have this under control) you can't say some place is Sodom and at the same time claim you are being scientifically objective. You just end up looking like a fool.

Consider the case of Eilat_Mazar and King David's Palace -

Did I Find King David’s Palace?

Dr Mazar is an excellent archeologist but was rightly criticized for her speculation.

If a distinguished scholar like Dr Mazar can be guilty of this, imagine how much more stupid an idiot like Collins is. And here you are defending him.

ThePainefulTruth

I do it because I equate Truth with God in the sense of it being the ultimate ideal or goal. If you disagree, I'd be delighted to discuss it in another thread.

You presented no arguments supporting my supposed defeat, only your self-righteousness declaration.

The fact that he's been the director of a major dig in Israel is very prestigious to begin with. They don't let just anybody dig up valuable historical sites, especially in Israel. And in spite of what you've heard, he has published extensively, a lot concerning this dig. The only negative is that the university isn't accredited, but that only speaks against the university.

I don't spend a lot of time using qualifiers. And just because I present some issues in a challenging manner, doesn't mean I'm not open to criticism of me or what I post. And I think differently. An idea stands on its own, not the strength of the personality associated with it. The Truth is the Truth whether it comes from the mouth of babes, or the devil himself.

You obviously haven't read the rebuttal links he put up, and he must not have read them either until just now. They're embarrassing, dismissing science out-of-hand.

Where's the credible scientific rebuttal. It may be coming, but until then the evidence in his favor is substantial. the Mazar case isn't relevant here at all. You're say she made a mistake (ONE mistake which wasn't that far off), therefore Collins must be wrong.

The chronology is determined archaeologically, dated by pottery shards and other data from all over the region--which is covered in the article and commonly known to those interested in the subject. That's why Bolen's dismissal of it is so unbelievable, declaring it wrong because it disagrees with the Bible, and an absurd interpretation of it at that.

As for the last question, read the article.