Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-24-2012, 01:41 PM

In the CFI podcast Point of Inquiry for December 12, Price debunks the common idea that Christmas trees are forbidden in the Bible.

Jeremiah 10:2 KJV Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3* For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4* They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Price says that this does not refer to cutting down a tree and decorating it, but to cutting down a tree and carving an idol out of it.

(He does seem to think that tying gifts to the tree goes back to the pagan practice of offering gifts to the god who lives in the tree.)

Of course, there are strict Christians who disagree, such as this site.

Quote:

This verse from Jeremiah is one of the most prophetic verses in the Bible in regard to modern times. It is a clear and glaring warning against this pagan holiday and the wicked time of commercialism and materialism that it has become. The Christmas tree is a blatant affront to God, but many, if not most, professed Christians put one up. Most that do not, do not because it is inconvenient, not because they are convicted by the Bible.

The modern perversions hide this warning by perverting this passage by disguising the adorned tree as an ordinary idol. I have seen many Christmas trees through the windows of churches all across America, even Baptist churches. This is as strong a statement that they could make about what kind of church they are, and should be a warning to all with any spiritual discernment at all.

...

This pornographers who own the NIV obscure the verse even worse. Here the tree is cut down and then it is carved as an idol. This requires an axe and a chisel both when there is only one tool in the verse. It is bad enough to lie about the chisel, but to interject both adds a level of incompetence that is mind boggling.

The ever silly Living Bible perverts the verse even more.

...

that the KJV translators did not translate ets as tree that was adorned in this passage in order to make a statement against the practice of erecting Christmas trees, because they had no reason to at that time. They translated it that way because they were divinely guided and God ensured that future generations be warned about Christmas.

sotto voce · 12-24-2012, 02:14 PM

'Christmas' is invented by and for people who are terrified of pressure upon them to treat others as they want to be treated themselves; all of the time.

Parasites, abusers.

mountainman · 12-24-2012, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

(He does seem to think that tying gifts to the tree goes back to the pagan practice of offering gifts to the god who lives in the tree.)

The Christmas festival (along with its trees) was hijacked from the pagan Saturnalia festival in the 4th century by an extremely corrupt regime.

EarlDoherty · 12-25-2012, 10:11 AM

Poor humanity!

Hitchens was right. Religion really does poison everything.

Earl Doherty

sotto voce · 12-25-2012, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

Poor humanity!

Hitchens was right.

His pal Dawkins sings carols at this time of year. Words like these:

'O holy Child of Bethlehem
Descend to us, we pray
Cast out our sin and enter in
Be born in us today'

Quote:

Religion really does poison everything.

For people who say they don't believe in a deity, yet are driven into incoherent babbling by the thought of a world without 'Christmas'?

Toto · 12-25-2012, 11:31 AM

Richard Dawkins on Xmas carols

Quote:

As a “cultural Anglican,” Mr. Dawkins continued, “I recoil from such secular carols as ‘White Christmas,’ ‘Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, and the loathsome ‘Jingle Bells,’ but I’m happy to sing real carols, and in the unlikely event that anyone wants me to read a lesson I’ll gladly oblige — only from the King James Version, of course.”

But atheists (as the angel Gabriel might put it), be not afraid! Mr. Dawkins, who guest-edited the issue, is hardly going soft. In the letter, he goes on to blast government support for religious schools, the “faith-labeling” of children, and even Mr. Cameron’s own Christianity, which Mr. Dawkins sees as less a genuine faith than a cynical embrace of beliefs many of the elite see as good for society but not for themselves.

“A depressingly large number of of intelligent and educated people, despite having outgrown religious faith, still vaguely presume without thinking about it that religious faith is somehow good for other people, good for society, good for public order, good for instilling morals, good for the common people even if we chaps don’t need it,” Mr. Dawkins writes. “Condescending? Patronizing? Yes, but isn’t that largely what lies behind successive governments’ enthusiasm for faith schools?”

sotto voce · 12-25-2012, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Richard Dawkins on Xmas carols

Quote:

As a “cultural Anglican,” Mr. Dawkins continued, “I recoil from such secular carols as ‘White Christmas,’ ‘Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, and the loathsome ‘Jingle Bells,’ but I’m happy to sing real carols, and in the unlikely event that anyone wants me to read a lesson I’ll gladly oblige

Wow. It gets worse.

Thank you, Toto, we are indebted to you.

:notworthy:

Sheshbazzar · 12-25-2012, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Price says that this does not refer to cutting down a tree and decorating it, but to cutting down a tree and carving an idol out of it.

The text of Jeremiah doesn't say a single word about any 'carving' or 'engraving'. Simply cutting a tree down, adorning the tree with silver and gold, and fastening it solidly with nails and a hammer. That's it.
I think it applies to any manner of wood that people do this to, including their 'sacred poles' used to 'ward' off evil, or with ritual incantations perform magical 'healings'. ( and even if they substitute glue and screws for assembly.)

sotto voce · 12-25-2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

In the CFI podcast Point of Inquiry for December 12, Price debunks the common idea that Christmas trees are forbidden in the Bible.
[INDENT]Jeremiah 10:2

How does Robert Price reckon that Jeremiah knew about Jesus' birth, and the invention of Mass? Does he believe in divine prophecy?

"a secular, sober, and impartial look at the Bible—no belief in the supernatural"

Toto · 12-25-2012, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

How does Robert Price reckon that Jeremiah knew about Jesus' birth, and the invention of Mass? Does he believe in divine prophecy?

He doesn't think Jeremiah knew about any future events. What gives you the (mis-) impression that he might?

His point is that those, like Minister Farrakhan, who claim that Christmas trees (however imprecise that name is) are blasphemous are misreading Jeremiah.

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12-24-2012, 02:14 PM	#2
sotto voce Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: UK Posts: 3,057	'Christmas' is invented by and for people who are terrified of pressure upon them to treat others as they want to be treated themselves; all of the time. Parasites, abusers.

12-25-2012, 10:11 AM	#4
EarlDoherty Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,435	Poor humanity! Hitchens was right. Religion really does poison everything. Earl Doherty

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