Freethought & Rationalism Archive

abaddon · 11-20-2006, 10:01 PM

Fiction is a story told well, and non-fiction is a story told poorly.

spin · 11-20-2006, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llyricist

Well my understanding of the term in its most general sense would be along the lines of: "a narrative which does not correspond with reality".

If the exodus was based on the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt, should it be considered fiction or not? How meaningful would it be to call it fiction if the receivers of the tradition are not aware that it fits the category -- according to your understanding?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llyricist

And frankly, I would say that all the narratives belonging to the genres mentioned above contain elements that would would fit that definition as well as elements that do not.

So we can happily make a distinction within a text which involves some elements being fictional, while others not?

Once the word "fiction" has been painted on a narrative, I frequently note that the text, in the eyes of the painter, loses its ability to be of use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llyricist

Then there are more specialized definitions which actually do depend on the intent of the promulgator of the narrative. Such as the whole genre labeled fiction, or the parable which is intended to be taken as fiction for illustration purposes, even though the correspondence to reality may be close to 1 to 1.

How can one divine the intent of the promulgator when the text may have passed through five sets of hands before becoming fossilized?

spin

mountainman · 11-20-2006, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Let's beat about the implications of labelling something as fiction.

OK, use the TF. Is it an historical comment by Josephus,
or a fictional interpolation by a later scribe?

purple_kathryn · 11-20-2006, 11:23 PM

It's a nice way of saying "lie"

mountainman · 11-21-2006, 12:02 AM

"Invention is more useful than truth"
---------- Mussolini

"The only thing new in the world is history you dont know"
---------- Harry S Truman.

spin · 11-21-2006, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

It's a nice way of saying "lie"

I do think a number of people who use the term actually mean "lie", but where's the lie in a parable? Where's the lie in a tradition based on history, yet has changed in transmission?

spin

mountainman · 11-21-2006, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I do think a number of people who use the term actually mean "lie", but where's the lie in a parable? Where's the lie in a tradition based on history, yet has changed in transmission?

IMO, there is no "lie" in a parable, because a parable by definition
is something which is known to "honestly" attempt the representation
of something else in another form.

However, there can be misrepresentation in asserting the source
of a parable to one figure, when the parable was extant before
that figure was purportedly born.

The stronger "lie" is in the fraudulent misrepresentation of historical
data, and in the fraudulent misrepresention of authorship, such as
the state of affairs IF Eusebius interpolated Tertullion,
for example, or Hegesippus, or Josephus, etc.

Pete

WishboneDawn · 11-21-2006, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

It's a nice way of saying "lie"

I wish people would just say 'lie' if that's what they mean. Fiction isn't about lies, it's simply about not being factual. Fiction can convey truths and meaning as well as facts can. Plato's socratic dialogues were fiction. Were they also lies?

neilgodfrey · 11-21-2006, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I'm happy to accept the possibility that the question is poorly framed, but as I stated in the OP I'm interested in understanding how we use the term "fiction" and you haven't helped yet. You've merely assumed the notion. Can you get further into it? Remember for example we often counterpoint truth and fiction, so for some truth cannot be fiction, though this is not the case for you, it seems.

Philosophy is sometimes presented as a dialogue in which different philosophical views are confronted in some situation, yet no-one here has yet indicated that philosophy can be fiction. Personal advice can be given in the form of a story or a parable, yet no-one called it fiction.

spin

This may not be the most useful comment in the context of the broader intent of this discussion, but I wonder if better progress in what is technically an analytic philosophy question would be accomplished by sharing it with the Philosophy section of iidb. I have never ventured into that group on iidb but would like to imagine there a higher chance of analyzing the word without the emotionally charged triggers it touches here. (Then once all enlightened and expert on the various notions of 'fiction' through the discipline of analytic philosophy we can all return and apply the word more knowledgably to our scriptural and historical debates!

)

purple_kathryn · 11-21-2006, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

I wish people would just say 'lie' if that's what they mean. Fiction isn't about lies, it's simply about not being factual. Fiction can convey truths and meaning as well as facts can. Plato's socratic dialogues were fiction. Were they also lies?

Words can have more than one definition.

If someone wants to convey that they believe that something is a fabrication but don't want to come across as overly confrontational I don't see why it wouldn't be acceptable to use "fiction" instead.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fiction

One of the definitions given in the above link

Quote:

Law. Something untrue that is intentionally represented as true by the narrator.

View Poll Results: Which of the following do you consider fiction?
Philosophy	0	0%
Personal advice	0	0%
A set of laws	0	0%
A parable	21	70.00%
A text meant to manipulate people	7	23.33%
A political statement in the form of a prophecy	11	36.67%
A composite person based on a collection of traditions	19	63.33%
A story for entertainment purposes	24	80.00%
A letter of edification written under another's name	6	20.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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11-20-2006, 10:01 PM	#11
abaddon Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: earth Posts: 3,946	Fiction is a story told well, and non-fiction is a story told poorly.

11-20-2006, 11:23 PM	#14
purple_kathryn Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,382	It's a nice way of saying "lie"

11-21-2006, 12:02 AM	#15
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	"Invention is more useful than truth" ---------- Mussolini "The only thing new in the world is history you dont know" ---------- Harry S Truman.

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