Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Powell · 07-11-2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Hoffman

Thanks Powell

POWELL:
You're welcome.

BTW, they erred as to their Josephus reference. It was section 20, not section 26. In English "20, 6" sounds like "26".

Quote:

Josephus Wars Book II, section 20, paragraph 6.

6. Josephus also, when he had settled these rules for determining causes by the law, with regard to the people's dealings one with another, betook himself to make provisions for their safety against external violence; and as he knew the Romans would fall upon Galilee, he built walls in proper places about Jotapata, and Bersabee, and Selamis; and besides these, about Caphareccho, and Japha, and Sigo, and what they call Mount Tabor, and Tarichee, and Tiberias. Moreover, he built walls about the caves near the lake of Gennesar, which places lay in the Lower Galilee; the same he did to the places of Upper Galilee, as well as to the rock called the Rock of the Achabari, and to Seph, and Jamnith, and Meroth; and in Gaulonitis he fortified Seleucia, and Sogane, and Gamala; but as to those of Sepphoris, they were the only people to whom he gave leave to build their own walls, and this because he perceived they were rich and wealthy, and ready to go to war, without standing in need of any injunctions for that purpose. The case was the same with Gischala, which had a wall built about it by John the son of Levi himself, but with the consent of Josephus; but for the building of the rest of the fortresses, he labored together with all the other builders, and was present to give all the necessary orders for that purpose. He also got together an army out of Galilee, of more than a hundred thousand young men, all of which he armed with the old weapons which he had collected together and prepared for them.

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-2.htm

John Powell

andrewcriddle · 07-16-2007, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeluvia

If you guys are still around, I have been looking through the Christian apocyrpha for mentions of either Nazareth or Nazarene...

So far, I haven't found any....have I missed something?

Nazareth is found in some versions of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...c-mrjames.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...b-mrjames.html

These references are obviously derived from the canonical gospels.

Andrew Criddle

canasia_us · 03-11-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker2000

Here are all verses of the OT of which I know that connect the future messiah with a branch in some way:

Isaiah 4:2 In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth {will be} the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel

Isaiah 11:1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.

Isaiah 53:2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no {stately} form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
[Here 'branch' isn't mentioned, but the messiah is described as a 'shoot'.]

Jeremiah 23:5 "Behold, {the} days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land.

Jeremiah 33:15 'In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.

Zechariah 3:8 'Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you--indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

Zechariah 6:12 "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.

Hello everybody. I'm new here and not that knowledgeable but I have something here which I stumbled upon recently. I was doing some research on Nazareth/Nazara in Matthew 2:23 and John 1:43-50. Matthew definitely says that it had been spoken by the prophets and John also has Philip saying that Jesus of Nazareth was the one of whom both Moses (Torah) and the prophets had spoken. The story in John also has Nathaniel at first doubting but then immediately and totally convinced that Jesus was the Son of God. I asked myself, what would convince Nathaniel so quickly that this was the Son of God, and not just another Jewish zealot. The answer of course is in what Jesus had said to him when Philip had introduced him to Jesus, where Jesus had described what Nathaniel was doing and that he was under the fig tree, etc, before Nathaniel had met Jesus. Jesus had shown to Nathaniel something that only God could have known, a hidden truth.

But there's more. Philip had said to Nathaniel, this is the one who had been spoken of by Moses and the Prophets, Jesus of Nazareth. I went looking for Nazareth in the Old Testament. And found one not recorded in your above quote. It's in the Dead Sea Scrolls, Isaiah 48:6. But it does not seem to have anything to do with a place name. And the equivalent verse in the Bible and Septuagint, use the words "hidden things" in its place. In fact, the surrounding verses and it, have to do with God revealing hidden things to Israel before they happen so that Israel would know that it was indeed Yahweh who was their God and not some idol. Only the true God could be identified as having anything to do with "the truth" or "hidden things" that might be revealed. My theory is this. Philip wasn't talking about any place called Nazareth. What immediately convinced Nathaniel that Jesus was the Son of God was the fact that He displayed a quality that only God has, the knower of "hidden things".

Nathaniel at first responds, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Was he referring to a town called Nazareth? Or was he saying, Can any good thing come out of "a hidden thing" that was revealed, in this case by Philip. In other words, he isn't going to believe anything anyone says unless it's proven. Then along comes Jesus who does exactly that.

Interestingly, Nazara is found once in the apochrophal Gospel of Phillip where it is defined as "truth".

just some thoughts...

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