Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 10-10-2012, 01:38 PM

Hi aa5874,

Quote:

Costello: Look, if I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta get it. Now who has it?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Who?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Naturally?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.

Abbott: No you don't, you throw the ball to Who.

Since you have repeated your post #7290380, I can just repeat my answer #7290510

Naturally,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Third Base! I feel like I am in an Abbot and Costello skit.

Let us say that a person X says President Obama was the President responsible for the Vietnam War.
Person Y answers, "No he was no even born yet when the Vietnam War started."
Person X looks up President Obama's birth date and finds it was 1961 and the Vietnam War was mainly from 1965 to 1973. He says, "You were wrong, President Obama was born before the Vietnam War.
Person Y answers, "Yes, I was wrong, but that was a trivial mistake. The real issue is whether he could have been president during the Vietnam War and obviously he could not have.
Person X answers, "How could I be wrong when you were wrong?"

Person Y is unsure how to answer. He thought he was having a reasonable conversation and suddenly finds himself in an Abbott and Costello skit.

You have already admitted your confusion about the birth of Josephus and the death of Apion so let us move on.

Let us deal with your main confusion.

You claimed that "...."Antiquities" was never quoted directly before Eusebius and therefore, it is unlikely to have been in wide circulation.

Your claim is highly illogical and show confusion.

Even the very Gospel stories include events found ONLY in Antiquities.

1. The Taxing of Cyrenius in the NT is found Only in Antiquities of the Jews 18

2. John the Baptist in the NT is found Only in Antiquities of the Jews 18.

3. The execution of John the Baptist in the NT is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews. 18

4. The death of Herod in the Gospels is found ONLY in Antiquities of the Jews 19.

5. Origen claimed Josephus mentioned Jesus, James and John the Baptist in Antiquities of the Jews.

6. The contents of the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews was known by Origen a Church writer in the 3rd century.

7. The number of books on Antiquities of the Jews was known in the 3rd century by Origen a 3rd century writer.

8. Antiquities of the Jews was used by Church writers when arguing about the History of the Jews.

9. The 2nd-3rd century Tertullian acknowledged Josephus wrote the history of the Jews.

10. The 2nd century Irenaeus mentioned the contents of Antiquities of the Jews 2 when arguing about Moses.

11.The 2nd century Justin Martyr acknowledged Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus when arguing about the History of the Jews.

jdboy · 10-10-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Tanya,

This is not a reference to the 20 book Antiquities of the Jews, but to the two books Against Apion, in which Josephus defends the ancient and noble origin of Judaism...

The 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews is mentioned in "Against Celsus".

Against Celsus 2.47

Quote:

....For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite.

In the same "Against Celsus" 2.47 it is also claimed James was put to death by the Jews and this is only found in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1.

The mere fact that Josephus wrote Against Apion is because Apion had criticised Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

If Origen was aware of Apion who mentioned Josephus then we have COMPLETE attestation that Antiquities of the Jews was known by Apion, the contemporary of Josephus, the authors of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, the Galatians writer, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and Eusebius.

Where does Apion criticize Josephus's Antiquities?

aa5874 · 10-10-2012, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Quote:

Costello: Look, if I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta get it. Now who has it?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Who?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Naturally?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.

Abbott: No you don't, you throw the ball to Who.

Again, you repeat confusion. You must show you can concentrate on the issue.

You claimed that "...."Antiquities" was never quoted directly before Eusebius and therefore, it is unlikely to have been in wide circulation".

Such a claim is highly illogical based on the evidence. Justin Martyr, Origen, Irenaeus and Tertullian claimed Josephus wrote the History of the Jews or used Josephus when arguing about their history or identified the 18th book of Antiquities and some of its contents.

PhilosopherJay · 10-10-2012, 06:03 PM

Hi jdboy,

"Where does Apion criticize Josephus's Antiquities?"

Good question.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews is mentioned in "Against Celsus".

Against Celsus 2.47

In the same "Against Celsus" 2.47 it is also claimed James was put to death by the Jews and this is only found in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1.

The mere fact that Josephus wrote Against Apion is because Apion had criticised Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

If Origen was aware of Apion who mentioned Josephus then we have COMPLETE attestation that Antiquities of the Jews was known by Apion, the contemporary of Josephus, the authors of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, the Galatians writer, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and Eusebius.

Where does Apion criticize Josephus's Antiquities?

aa5874 · 10-11-2012, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi jdboy,

"Where does Apion criticize Josephus's Antiquities?"

Good question.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews is mentioned in "Against Celsus".

Against Celsus 2.47

In the same "Against Celsus" 2.47 it is also claimed James was put to death by the Jews and this is only found in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1.

The mere fact that Josephus wrote Against Apion is because Apion had criticised Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

If Origen was aware of Apion who mentioned Josephus then we have COMPLETE attestation that Antiquities of the Jews was known by Apion, the contemporary of Josephus, the authors of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, the Galatians writer, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and Eusebius.

Where does Apion criticize Josephus's Antiquities?

These are the written words of Josephus in "Against Apion" II

Quote:

I shall now (1) therefore begin a confutation of the remaining authors who have written any thing against us; although I confess I have had a doubt upon me about Apion (2) the grammarian, whether I ought to take the trouble of confuting him or not; for some of his writings contain much the same accusations which the others have laid against us, some things that he hath added are very frigid and contemptible, and for the greatest part of what he says, it is very scurrilous, and, to speak no more than the plain truth, it shows him to be a very unlearned person, and what he lays together looks like the work of a man of very bad morals, and of one no better in his whole life than a mountebank.

Yet, because there are a great many men so very foolish, that they are rather caught by such orations than by what is written with care, and take pleasure in reproaching other men, and cannot abide to hear them commended, I thought it to be necessary not to let this man go off without examination, who had written such an accusation against us, as if he would bring us to make an answer in open court...

It is clear that Apion's writings were AGAINST the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

It is clear that Apion's writings made ACCUSATIONS Against the Antiquities of the Jews and that is Precisely why Josephus wrote Against Apion.

In effect, Apion's writings contradicted the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

PhilosopherJay · 10-11-2012, 05:42 AM

Hi aa5874,

Quote:

"I shall now (1) therefore begin a confutation of the remaining authors who have written any thing against us[/I]"

When Josephus uses the term "us" in this phrase, he is referring to the Jews. He is not saying "me". Although "us" includes "me," the "me" is not Josephus who specifically wrote "Antiquities of the Jews," the "us" is Josephus as a Jew.

If you had read the essay, you would/should know that Apion offers attacks against Jews, not specifically against Josephus' "Antiquities".

The fact that Apion died roughly 45-48 CE and Josephus wrote "Antiquities" in the early 90's should alert you to the impossibility of your interpretation.

Therefore in regards to your conclusions:

Quote:

It is clear that Apion's writings were AGAINST the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

It is clear that Apion's writings made ACCUSATIONS Against the Antiquities of the Jews and that is Precisely why Josephus wrote Against Apion.

In effect, Apion's writings contradicted the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus

Clearly Apion never wrote and could not have written specifically against Josephus' "Antiquities."

It is clear that Apion's writings did not make specific accusations against Josephus' work "Antiquities of the Jews" and Josephus wrote against him because he had attacked the Jews generally.

While Apion may have contradicted material in "Antiquities of the Jews," it was only coincidental and not because he was responding to Josephus' work "Antiquities of the Jews." If Abraham Lincoln wrote a passage that contradicts something written by Jay Raskin on FRDB, it is coincidental, not because Abraham Lincoln read Jay Raskin's writings and responded to them.

You are committing the fallacy of equivocation. Because Apion wrote against the Jews in history, and Josephus wrote a history of the Jews, you are assuming that Apion wrote specifically against Josephus' history of the Jews.

It is like saying Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote against war. Therefore it is clear that Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote against the Afghanistan and Iraqi Wars. While it is true that Emerson (1802-1883)wrote against war in general, he did not write specifically against the 21st Century wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi jdboy,

"Where does Apion criticize Josephus's Antiquities?"

Good question.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

These are the written words of Josephus in "Against Apion" II

Quote:

I shall now (1) therefore begin a confutation of the remaining authors who have written any thing against us; although I confess I have had a doubt upon me about Apion (2) the grammarian, whether I ought to take the trouble of confuting him or not; for some of his writings contain much the same accusations which the others have laid against us, some things that he hath added are very frigid and contemptible, and for the greatest part of what he says, it is very scurrilous, and, to speak no more than the plain truth, it shows him to be a very unlearned person, and what he lays together looks like the work of a man of very bad morals, and of one no better in his whole life than a mountebank.

Yet, because there are a great many men so very foolish, that they are rather caught by such orations than by what is written with care, and take pleasure in reproaching other men, and cannot abide to hear them commended, I thought it to be necessary not to let this man go off without examination, who had written such an accusation against us, as if he would bring us to make an answer in open court...

It is clear that Apion's writings were AGAINST the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

It is clear that Apion's writings made ACCUSATIONS Against the Antiquities of the Jews and that is Precisely why Josephus wrote Against Apion.

In effect, Apion's writings contradicted the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

aa5874 · 10-11-2012, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Quote:

"I shall now (1) therefore begin a confutation of the remaining authors who have written any thing against us[/I]"

When Josephus uses the term "us" in this phrase, he is referring to the Jews. He is not saying "me". Although "us" includes "me," the "me" is not Josephus who specifically wrote "Antiquities of the Jews," the "us" is Josephus as a Jew.

If you had read the essay, you would/should know that Apion offers attacks against Jews, not specifically against Josephus' "Antiquities".

The fact that Apion died roughly 45-48 CE and Josephus wrote "Antiquities" in the early 90's should alert you to the impossibility of your interpretation.

Apion's writings were AGAINST the Antiquities of the Jews and that is EXACTLY why Josephus wrote AGAINST Apion.

There is NO other reason. Apion's writings CONTRADICTED the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

Against Apion II

Quote:

I shall now (1) therefore begin a confutation of the remaining authors who have written any thing against us...

It is clear that Apion's history of the Jews CONTRADICTED the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

jdboy · 10-11-2012, 03:33 PM

Apion was DEAD before Josephus wrote Antiquities. Apion said nothing against Josephus

Apparently the work was not called "Against Apion"

"This 2 volume sequel to Josephus' Jewish Antiquities was originally entitled: On the Jewish Antiquities. Since the work is a rebuttal to Roman critics of Josephus' Antiquities, later scholars gave it its current polemical title. This eloquent example of Greek dialectical argument is not just a refutation of the slander of one man, however. It is a refutation of anti-Semitism in a wide variety of ancient cultures. It was published sometime after the Jewish Antiquities (93/94 CE)."
http://virtualreligion.net/iho/apion.html

PhilosopherJay · 10-11-2012, 06:31 PM

Hi jdboy,

Thanks for the information.

I think that it is common sense that Apion could have written nothing against Josephus' work "Antiquities," unless he rose from the dead and read it.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Apion was DEAD before Josephus wrote Antiquities. Apion said nothing against Josephus

Apparently the work was not called "Against Apion"

"This 2 volume sequel to Josephus' Jewish Antiquities was originally entitled: On the Jewish Antiquities. Since the work is a rebuttal to Roman critics of Josephus' Antiquities, later scholars gave it its current polemical title. This eloquent example of Greek dialectical argument is not just a refutation of the slander of one man, however. It is a refutation of anti-Semitism in a wide variety of ancient cultures. It was published sometime after the Jewish Antiquities (93/94 CE)."
http://virtualreligion.net/iho/apion.html

aa5874 · 10-11-2012, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Apion was DEAD before Josephus wrote Antiquities. Apion said nothing against Josephus

Apparently the work was not called "Against Apion"

"This 2 volume sequel to Josephus' Jewish Antiquities was originally entitled: On the Jewish Antiquities. Since the work is a rebuttal to Roman critics of Josephus' Antiquities, later scholars gave it its current polemical title. This eloquent example of Greek dialectical argument is not just a refutation of the slander of one man, however. It is a refutation of anti-Semitism in a wide variety of ancient cultures. It was published sometime after the Jewish Antiquities (93/94 CE)."
http://virtualreligion.net/iho/apion.html

Why do you refuse to accept what Josephus wrote??

Do you not understand that "Against Apion" was composed AFTER Antiquities of the Jews was written??

Apion's writings were AGAINST the HISTORY of the Jews and Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus is about the HISTORY of the Jews.

Apion's History of the Jews CONTRADICTED Antiquities and that is PRECISELY why Josephus wrote "Against Apion"

Apion claimed the Jews were the descendants of Egyptians who were expelled because of some diseases which was contrary to Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.

Against Apion II

Quote:

2. Now although I cannot but think that I have already demonstrated, and that abundantly more than was necessary, that our fathers were not originally Egyptians, nor were thence expelled, either on account of bodily diseases, or any other calamities of that sort; yet will I briefly take notice of what Apion adds upon that subject...

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-11-2012, 03:33 PM	#48
jdboy Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: NW United States Posts: 155	Apion was DEAD before Josephus wrote Antiquities. Apion said nothing against Josephus Apparently the work was not called "Against Apion" "This 2 volume sequel to Josephus' Jewish Antiquities was originally entitled: On the Jewish Antiquities. Since the work is a rebuttal to Roman critics of Josephus' Antiquities, later scholars gave it its current polemical title. This eloquent example of Greek dialectical argument is not just a refutation of the slander of one man, however. It is a refutation of anti-Semitism in a wide variety of ancient cultures. It was published sometime after the Jewish Antiquities (93/94 CE)." http://virtualreligion.net/iho/apion.html

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.