Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jdlongmire · 07-05-2004, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

It is interesting that most of the Xians dodge the flesh and blood of John, for the more palatable renditions in the other Gospels. The early Xians were charged with cannibalism in their "secret" meetings for their choice of words. Levitican Laws forbade the eating of blood. And of course, with Abraham, human sacrifice was formally denounced, sort of... With Christ it all comes full circle. It is an interesting iteration of practices.

DK

I actually think if you read the passage for what it says, it seems fairly clear...I bolded the key text...

51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[5] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

He then revealed the essence of the teaching, as was His wont, later at the last supper...

funinspace · 07-05-2004, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

I actually think if you read the passage for what it says, it seems fairly clear...I bolded the key text...

51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[5] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

He then revealed the essence of the teaching, as was His wont, later at the last supper...

Wow, ok...I wasn't even trying for a theological analysis. And I certainly consider John is the most spiritual and dramatic of the Gospels. I was just pointing out some of the long term parts of history related to this rather light thread...touchy...

DK

jdlongmire · 07-05-2004, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Wow, ok...I wasn't even trying for a theological analysis. And I certainly consider John is the most spiritual and dramatic of the Gospels. I was just pointing out some of the long term parts of history related to this rather light thread...touchy...

DK

...me?...touchy?...

Heathen Dawn · 07-05-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeda

It never occured to me until recently just how focused Christiany is focused on blood and human sacrifice. The fact that Christianity worships an object of execution and torture and wears the symbol around thier necks, on thier lapels, and on the walls of thier churches seems sick to me now in hindsight.

You know, that reminds me ... I post on ExWitch Forum, the board of a ministry with the mission of converting Wiccans and other pagans to Christianity. One of their sections (look in the link) is called:

The Wonderful Cross

Yeah. The Wonderful Cross. Why not The Wonderful Hangman’s Noose? Or The Wonderful Electric Chair while you’re about it?

Sick stuff this all is.

jdlongmire · 07-05-2004, 04:22 PM

yep, just plain sick....self-sacrificing love...

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of Glory died
My richest gain I count but loss
And pour contempt on all my pride

See from his head, his hands, his feet
Sorrow and love flow mingled down
Did ever such love and sorrow meet
Or thorns compose so rich a crown

Were the whole realm of nature mine
That were an offering far too small
Love so amazing, so divine
Demands my soul, my life, my all

O the wonderful cross, O the wonderful cross
Bids me come and die and find that I may truly live
O the wonderful cross, O the wonderful cross
All who gather here by grace draw near and bless
Your name

Magus55 · 07-05-2004, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathen Dawn

You know, that reminds me ... I post on ExWitch Forum, the board of a ministry with the mission of converting Wiccans and other pagans to Christianity. One of their sections (look in the link) is called:

The Wonderful Cross

Yeah. The Wonderful Cross. Why not The Wonderful Hangman’s Noose? Or The Wonderful Electric Chair while you’re about it?

Sick stuff this all is.

Because Jesus was born during the Roman Empire and crucifixion was the formal method of execution at the time?

TySixtus · 07-05-2004, 08:34 PM

What Heathen was getting at (I think, if he doesn't mind my chiming in) is that it would be like us worshipping the electric chair, because our messiah died in it. It's a disgusting object to venerate.
Crosses, used for that ghastly purpose, are the same thing. I mean, think about it. In churches that I used to attend, there were figures, statues and paintings of Jesus bleeding and dying in agony. Why the fuck would you venerate that? Why would you want to see it? How does it bring you closer to god? It's all there to keep you feeling guilty. Just like Mel's movie. Nothing about the supposed teachings of Christ- just a snuff film, an orgy of gore.

Christians confuse grateful with guilty, I think.

Ty

Evoken · 07-05-2004, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TySixtus

What Heathen was getting at (I think, if he doesn't mind my chiming in) is that it would be like us worshipping the electric chair, because our messiah died in it. It's a disgusting object to venerate.
Crosses, used for that ghastly purpose, are the same thing. I mean, think about it. In churches that I used to attend, there were figures, statues and paintings of Jesus bleeding and dying in agony. Why the fuck would you venerate that? Why would you want to see it? How does it bring you closer to god? It's all there to keep you feeling guilty. Just like Mel's movie. Nothing about the supposed teachings of Christ- just a snuff film, an orgy of gore.

Christians confuse grateful with guilty, I think.

Ty

I agree..while I enjoyed Gibson's film, to me it was nothing more than shock value to try and make you feel bad and feel the pain of Jesus. A wonderful tactic to try and conver people but one that I as a Christian strongly disagree with.

Same with the cross with Jesus hanging on it, it is not used as a symbol of hope but of hopelesness. I use my cross but it is an empty cross without the crucified Jesus. After all Jesus commands us to take up our cross and follow him. What Christians are doing is placing all the burden on Jesus cross intead of carrying their own cross.

GermanHeretic · 07-06-2004, 12:37 AM

If Jesus would have been drowned, christians weared a fish tank around their necks. Hey, wait, they have this fish.......

GermanHeretic · 07-06-2004, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon Doubtmonger

OK, I admit it: I'm a fat, bald 44-year-old who's too perpetually and terminally out of the hipness loop to know much about the vampire and goth subcultures. Therefore, I can't come up with a smartass response about what xianity as vampire/goth cult, and its rituals, would look like.

Can the more hip among you chime in?

(Mods, feel free to move if need be.)

I am very much in this "gothic subculture", and christians are a tiny minority there (he, he, at least there). Most of the people I know are atheists, "don't care at all"s, neopagans (Norse style), satanists, or wiccans (alphabetically ordered).

The only touch of christianity you get is on a decent graveyard party.

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07-05-2004, 04:22 PM	#15
jdlongmire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God! Posts: 2,657	yep, just plain sick....self-sacrificing love... When I survey the wondrous cross On which the Prince of Glory died My richest gain I count but loss And pour contempt on all my pride See from his head, his hands, his feet Sorrow and love flow mingled down Did ever such love and sorrow meet Or thorns compose so rich a crown Were the whole realm of nature mine That were an offering far too small Love so amazing, so divine Demands my soul, my life, my all O the wonderful cross, O the wonderful cross Bids me come and die and find that I may truly live O the wonderful cross, O the wonderful cross All who gather here by grace draw near and bless Your name

07-05-2004, 08:34 PM	#17
TySixtus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rachacha NY Posts: 4,219	What Heathen was getting at (I think, if he doesn't mind my chiming in) is that it would be like us worshipping the electric chair, because our messiah died in it. It's a disgusting object to venerate. Crosses, used for that ghastly purpose, are the same thing. I mean, think about it. In churches that I used to attend, there were figures, statues and paintings of Jesus bleeding and dying in agony. Why the fuck would you venerate that? Why would you want to see it? How does it bring you closer to god? It's all there to keep you feeling guilty. Just like Mel's movie. Nothing about the supposed teachings of Christ- just a snuff film, an orgy of gore. Christians confuse grateful with guilty, I think. Ty

07-06-2004, 12:37 AM	#19
GermanHeretic Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 224	If Jesus would have been drowned, christians weared a fish tank around their necks. Hey, wait, they have this fish.......

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