Duke Leto

I calculated it based on the stated regnal year of his death and the ascension of Claudius. It could be even later if Claudius didn't install Agrippa I at once. That wouldn't help you much.

Bravo on the ability to now turn around and refer to your specious "refutation" of the Herodian narrative in Josephus' reliability as proven so you can reject it as evidence.

What shall your next act be, a demonstration that the Second Temple was not destroyed and is living quietly in Paraguay? That Antiquities is actually Claudius' Carthaginian History? Proof that a member of the Jewish royal family would allow himself to be castrated?

stephan huller

help me with what? what argument am i losing?

Duke Leto

You need an Agrippa II at least somewhat older than 17 in 43 CE for him to have witnessed a crucifixion in Pontius Pilate's governorship (unless you're redating that too). You also want to have him die at a very advanced age (as Marcion) as indicated in the title of this thread, which would be in line with the date of death he is generally given and an earlier birth.

Of course now that I've pointed this out you're probably going to turn around and claim that any discussion of your Herodian revisionism is out of scope since you only want to talk about castration as a means of prolonging life, as relates to figures that just so happen to be important in your conspiracy theory.

Again, Bravo! I actually have seen creationists with less ability to convenietly change the subject.

stephan huller

What is the subject? I don't know where you get the idea that I am arguing that Marcus Julius Agrippa is Marcion. I am saying that there are examples from antiquity of castrated people living to an old age.

Every time the topic of Agrippa or Josephus is mentioned it's like my entire 'theory' about Agrippa becomes the subject of debate. My 'theory' is that we know very little about Agrippa and part of what we don't know is the fact that he was certainly taken to be the messiah. The question of the reliability of Josephus deserves to be made in a longer work.

The sub-argument that is being developed here now is that you and I were debating over whether there is a 'birth date' for Agrippa in Josephus. I said no because the evidence is contradictory. You say yes merely to drag the whole debate over to the question of whether my 'theory' about Agrippa is certainly true.

stephan huller

WTF does this have to do with the debate about whether Agrippa can be used as an example of a eunuch who lived to an old age?

But now that we are on the subject. In my book I argued that IF Jesus's crucifixion was the same year as the dismissal of Pilate and his trial before the senate (as we read in the Christian pseudepigrapha) then even by the standards of Josephus, Agrippa could have been a witness to the crucifixion. The debate over whether or not Josephus was a reliable source extended only to the question of whether there were two Agrippas or one (at least as far as I can remember - it's been almost six years since I even looked at that material).

Indeed in that book I argued that Agrippa was Mark and that he wrote the gospel from the point of view that he was the prisoner freed in exchange for Jesus.

In order to accept the story that Josephus puts forward about Herod killing his two sons by Mariamne you have to accept that both Aristobulos and Alexander died BEFORE they became kings. Yet even the existing narrative of Josephus casts doubt about the death of these two 'sons of David' with the editors acknowledging the existence of someone 'pretending' to be Alexander and gaining some notoriety. This becomes all the more problematic when we see the testimony in Ephesus of a 'king Alexander' who was the father of a Caius Julius Agrippa:

This Caius Julius Agrippa also had a position of authority in Galilee according to recent archaeological evidence. There are many more examples like this of an entire world of Herodians having influence outside of the narrative of Josephus. Indeed what evidence does Josephus provide for the history of the Herodians outside of Herod the Great himself that matches anything that has survived in the historical record?

Here is another discovery related to this 'Caius Agrippa' from Tiberias and the author's suggestion that he is Agrippa I:

http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa...pdf/093144.pdf

Of course Josephus says that Agrippa I was the son of Aristobulos the elder son of Herod the Great by Mariamne.

outhouse

close but not exactly



classic rome if you survived 15 years of age is 52

the average was 28 that included infant mortality

Duke Leto

Yup.

stephan huller

My point in all of this is that Josephus is useless to use as a road map of Judean history and especially that of the Herodian household. It is the equivalent of Acts with respect to the early Church.

stephan huller

But we can continue to talk about Agrippa and the Herodians if you like. I haven't put you on ignore like marymary. I just think that there is a separate observation here about the lifespan of eunuchs.

Duke Leto

Not really, no. You'll be happy to know I'm strongly considering using a self-ban to get me the hell away from this pleasant waste of time and back to the writing I'm supposed to be doing while recovering from my illness.

I will indeed be looking forward to your Josephus "work" since the Amazon Reviews for the "Real Messiah" are quite entertaining.