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07-11-2012, 12:49 AM | #41 | |
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ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων οὗτος. |
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07-11-2012, 05:25 AM | #42 | |
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If 350 million citizens of USA believed that aliens landed in Roswell, NM, would that make it true? We know that the Romans crucified many people. That's an historical reality. Inserting this fact into a work of fiction, doesn't invalidate the assessment of the gospels as fiction. |
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07-11-2012, 06:58 AM | #43 | |||
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The tribe of Judah in trouble because of an unnamed adversary, should be helped by other tribes. (JSB) 7--And he said of Judah: Hear, O LORD, the voice of Judah and restore him to his people. Make his hands strong for him, help him against his foes. The Jewish Study Bible (JSB) Commentary by Rashi on http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi/true May this [also be] for Judah: He juxtaposed Judah to Reuben, because they both confessed to the wrong they had done, as it is said, “that wise men have told… to them alone… and no stranger passed between them” (Job 15:18-19). [This verse alludes to the confession of Reuben and Judah (“that wise men have told”), and how they were consequently blessed here together (“them alone”); although Levi was next in line chronologically to Reuben, nevertheless here, in the context of this blessing, Levi did not come between them (“no stranger came between them”), but rather, he was blessed immediately afterwards (verses 8-11).]- [see Rashi Job 15: 19] Our Rabbis further explained that during the entire forty years that Israel was in the desert, Judah’s bones were rolling in his coffin, because of the excommunication which he had accepted upon himself [when he took responsibility for Benjamin], as it is said, “If I will not bring him to you… then I have sinned against you all of the days” (Gen. 43:9). [So], Moses said, “Who caused Reuben to [publicly] confess his sin? It was Judah…”(see Sotah 7b) [and thus, by placing Judah together with Reuben, Moses alluded to this merit of Judah, and, in effect,“May the Lord listen to Judah’s voice,” is a prayer that Judah’s bones would finally come to rest]. O Lord, hearken to Judah’s voice: [I.e., Also, hear the prayer of Judah’s descendants:] The prayer of David and Solomon, and the prayer of Asa because of the Ethiopians, and that of Jehoshaphat on account of the Ammonites, and that of Hezekiah because of Sennacherib. — [see Sifrei 33:7] שמע ה' קול יהודה: תפלת דוד ושלמה ואסא מפני הכושים, ויהושפט מפני העמונים, וחזקיה מפני סנחריב: and bring him to his people: in peace, from war............................................... ......... .................................................. . |
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07-11-2012, 04:01 PM | #44 |
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Oops! A Duplicate. Revision to come.
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07-11-2012, 05:18 PM | #45 | |||||||||||
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[13] The alleged insignificance of the case of Jesus of Nazareth,(13n2) even if it were true, would never satisfactorily explain this silence of all official sources. We know better from the Egyptian papyri, the so called 'Pagan acts of martyrs,' the habits and usages of the Roman bureaucracy, which kept a running index of even the smallest incidents of their official life as they came up. Such notices were collected so as to form the official diary (commentarii) of the governor, copies of which were kept in provincial and central archives, whilst extracts were regularly sent to the Emperor in Rome. Furthermore, the governors themselves would have duplicates of certain acts placarded for public cognizance,(13n3) and in cases which were of a nature to interest larger circles extracts of the official judicial proceedings were made and distributed by the partisans of the accused or condemned,(13n4) a method which in those [14] days had to replace the modern newspaper with its regular accounts of sensational 'cases.' The so-called acta sincera, i.e. the genuine acts of Christian martyrs is are nothing but the edifying reworkings of just such pamphlets, based on the original protocols as composed by the official notarii or exceptores. Such excerpts could be made with perfect legality whenever the authorities granted the facultas inspiciendi et describendi commentarios,(14n1) i.e. permitted an examination of the court acts. If that permission was refused, recourse was had to bribery of the state police officials, the so-called speculatores. As a matter of fact, such acta sincera are not lacking in the case of a number of infinitely less important trials in connexion with certain early Christian martyrs. For example, 200 denarii are stated to have been the exact cost to the Christians of a copy of the acts of Tarachus, Probus, and Andronicus.(14n2) Quote:
You will note that Pilate's modus apparendi, when he met organized resistance to one of his new policies, was to have soldiers infiltrate the crowd in local garb and club or stab to death folks in the crowd (probably concentrating on the ringleaders), or swoop down in any organized group who met in alarming numbers anywhere and kill large numbers. When Philo says he "constantly repeated executions without trial," he is saying, IMHO, that he did not swoop in and disperse the crowd, then arrest the ringleaders and subject them to a trial. In other words, Pilate was prone to take military action which kills innocent bystanders, much like the US military constantly fires on news crews in Iraq and wedding parties in Afghanistan because they looked "suspicious." Quote:
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DCH |
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07-11-2012, 06:06 PM | #46 |
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More of Eisler, but pertinant nevertheless
Furthuring the question whether Christians ever attempted to retrieve a genuine copy of the acta of the trial, Eisler has this to say (reformatted a bit and with annotations):
[14] ... Granting this, as we may without the slightest hesitation, and [15] considering furthermore the comparative case with which copies of such documents could be procured and circulated in abridged form, it is certainly a remarkable fact that the accounts of the trial of Jesus in the Gospels are not based on anything like an extract from the acts of the trial. They resemble in no way the acta martyrum sincera [the official acts of trials of Christian martyrs], with their abundant correct detail about the legal procedure, beginning with the date of the trial and ending with the correct formula of the judgment pronounced.Obviously, Eisler is inclined to the hypothesis that Jesus was a royal claimant, a hypothesis that I tend to favor myself. But this type of Jesus is not well received it seems. Certainly not by those Christians who had developed the higher Christology, who in time wrote Gospels specifically to take that rough edge off of Jesus in defense of their cult before the Roman public (this is why I consider them "apologies" for why they rever a man crucified as a rebel). What thinkest thou, Simon? DCH PS: These excerpts are from Robert Eisler's Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (Methuen, 1931) which as far as I can tell by looking at the 1959 copyright renewals (where it is not mentioned) is out of US copyright. |
07-11-2012, 06:39 PM | #47 |
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Again for me the question isn't just whether the hypomnema of Pilate was forged in the third century but why if it was such an obvious forgery did Christians think it was important to forge their own version of the text. It is impossible to prove the answer definitively either way but my suspicion is that the claim is more likely to have a kernel of truth to it than for it to be completely made up.
Indeed (again this is by no means a definitive 'proof' either) why is it so important for Christians to prove that Pilate became a believer? Showing that Pilate really came to believe in Jesus presupposes that there was this other body of evidence which showed him 'deny' the divinity of Jesus. The Ethiopic claim that Pilate was a saint is only the most exaggerated example of this phenomenon. Origen's 2nd century Homilies on Matthew suggest that she became a Christian. The feast day of St Pilate and Procula is June 25 which is the day after John the Baptist day (very important in Quebec - national holiday) |
07-11-2012, 06:56 PM | #48 |
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From the Ethiopian Synaxarium for Senne 25 (July 02) On this day also died Pilate, the confessor. Salutation to Pilate who washed his hands of the Blood of Jesus Christ. http://www.stmichaeleoc.org/Synaxarium/Senne_25.htm
also the feast day of Peter and Paul: And the doctors of the Church had decreed that on this day Christians shall celebrate the festival of Peter and Paul, that they may bless the entrance of the winter season. Salutation to Peter and to Paul, [and to] the sequence of the winter. [Wanting in the Bodleian MS.] The Roman date for the feast day of Peter and Paul is June 29 |
07-12-2012, 02:38 AM | #49 | ||||
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07-12-2012, 03:05 AM | #50 | ||
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How do we all know for sure that the document Eusebius calls a forgery is not the extant text before us? I would be obliged if you could please cite the evidence for this (mainstream) claim. Thanks. |
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