jgreen44

When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. (Mark 16:11)

Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. (Mark 16:14)

The disciples who saw Jesus turn water into wine, still storms, heal the sick, raise the dead, feed multitudes, walk on water and transfigure on the mountaintop before Moses and Elijah would not accept that Jesus had risen from the dead until they had each seen with their own eyes the risen Christ. The Eleven who traveled with Jesus, heard all of his teachings and learned exclusively of the secrets of the kingdom did not accept multiple eyewitness accounts of the resurrection. But the rest of us must accept hearsay reports written decades after the alleged events.

Perhaps if the Eleven skeptics were alive today, and therefore unable to gaze upon the risen Christ, they would be posting on FRDB.

dockeen

At various times, it certainly seems that the folks that jesus hangs out with are not
the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Such "forgetfulness" is in some ways reminiscent of an old TV series in which the
information from one episode is not carried forward into the next. It is also consistent
with independently written fictional accounts that are sutured together into a book.

Saramago

...But by Acts 1:12, and particularly after the Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4, the Holy Spirit sucks out their skeptical leanings and they become Righteous True Believers.

Sheshbazzar

Appears that the reason they were so 'forgetful', was that they never saw or heard of these miracles.

Sounds like it started out as a pretty good tale.......until some piss-poor cooks came along and added way to many turnips to the stew.

Personally, I doubt that they ever heard the details of his birth, or about him rising from the dead either.

GakuseiDon

I think we need to be careful not to apply modern conceptions with ancient beliefs. It isn't that Jesus was seen after death -- perhaps as a ghost -- but that Jesus was seen 'a live' again that was unbelievable. Paul ties this in with the first-fruit of the general resurrection of the dead. If the Gospel writers did the same, then we can see how the characters in the Gospels would be reluctant to see Jesus 'live again', for its implications.

mountainman

You do realise that you are opining a can of worms, dont you? It's not likely that the "Gospel writers" Matt, Mark, Luke and John are skeptics because these are orthodox rants. On the other hand, the entire set of non canonical gospels (named after other disciples and innocent bystanders) appear to exhibit skeptical tendencies, such as docetism and strange and impossible exaggerations.

If you think the gospels were written decades after the alleged events then my advice to you is that you are not thinking skeptically enough. We have no guarantee that they were written in the first century of the common era. There is no guarantee when the non canonical gospels were written either, but if you read these other gospels, it seems clear that the authors were skeptical of the "orthodox tetrarchy of the gospels". Camels are put through the eye of a needle, smoked herrings are raised from the dead and the Temple of Apollo is destroyed by a fast of seven days. Ect etc etc etc.


Perhaps if the Eleven skeptics were trapped alive and kicking inside the Nag Hammadi Codices, they would not be able to gaze on the risen Christ because they were prostrated flat to the earth in his presence, until by streching forth his hand, like a sorceror, he caused them to stand back up.

We prostrated ourselves on the ground and worshipped him.
We comprised eleven disciples.
He stretched forth his hand and caused us to stand.

NHC 6.1 (The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles)

andrewcriddle

FWIW these passages come from the long ending of Mark and were probably not part of the original text.

(Although the disciples hesitation about believing is mentioned in the other accounts of the resurrection.)

Andrew Criddle

jgreen44

You seem to be saying that the author of GMark may be portraying the characters in the Gospels as skeptical of the resurrection simply because an initial physical resurrection (such as that of Jesus) would represent the beginning of the general resurrection of the dead. If this is the case, upon the resurrection of Lazarus, shouldn't some or all of the disciples have taken up the practice of wearing sandwich boards reading, "The End is Near"?

jgreen44

It's not that I believe the gospels are that early. They may have been written on Irenaeus' back porch for all I know or in Constantine's basement. I just didn't want to make the age of the gospels an issue. But it seems I did. I hereby re-word that sentence to say, "But the rest of us must accept hearsay reports written many years after the alleged events."
Surely this is the basis for the Neo character in the Matrix.

jgreen44

Just for the record, here are those other expressions of doubt...

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. (Matthew 28:16-17)

9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. (Luke 24:9-11)

25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! (Luke 24:25)

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” (Luke 24)

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” (John 20:25)