Onias

Was the original 'Jesus' a militant before he was
redacted into the Prince of Peace?

http://www.drabruzzi.com/jesus_movement.htm

maryhelena

Well, since the historicity of the gospel figure of JC cannot be established....

A composite gospel JC takes care of the 'man of war' element and the 'man of peace' element in the gospel figure.



Onias, this position, that the gospel JC figure reflects an anti-Roman element will not sit comfortably for some Christians - as well as for some ahistoricist/mythicists. Why?

1) Christian theology has JC as 'the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world'. i.e. JC must be unblemished, sinless, for that crucifixion/ransom to have salvation value. A 'rebel' JC does not conform to Christian theology.

2) The JC historicists? Well, they have created so many options as to the character of that gospel JC - options that carry less baggage than a 'rebel' JC would...

3) The ahistoricists/mythicists. Yes, a composite JC reflecting a 'man of war' can be accomodated (Antigonus....) However, for some mythicists theories - theories that don't want to consider Hasmonean/Jewish history as being relevant to the gospel writers - then a 'rebel' JC becomes problematic. Why would the gospel writers create such a controversial figure? Why on earth would the gospel writers create a JC figure reflecting 'rebel' elements? If JC is simply an imaginative creation with no relevance to Hasmonean/Jewish history - it would make no sense for the gospel writers to include a 'rebel' element in their created gospel figure. Totally unnecessary. That the gospel writers have included a 'rebel' element in their literary JC figure - demonstrates that Hasmonean/Jewish history was relevant to the gospel story.

It will be interesting to see where the writer of the above article goes with his research.

Toto

Related thread: Was the Historial Jesus an armed seditionist?

Onias

Consider this:

Mat 10:38 currently reads:

"And he who does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me."



But this reading makes much more sense:

"And he who does not take up his sword and follow after me is not worthy of me."



especially since verse 34 also refers to a sword, "Do not think I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

Onias

MrMacSon

Yes, the 'composite character' allows any number of narratives, and these likely changed from time to time and place to place during Christianity's formative period; such as

Perspicuo

No, the Jesus character is composite.

He was pacifist-militant-mild-irate-faithful-dissenter-smart-stupid-liberal-cultist.

Toto

This is intriguing.

There is no textual variation here, but the passage has always trouble interpreters because the words are placed in Jesus' mouth before he was actually crucified. There are all sorts of explanations for this, of course.

I thought I had remembered a similar metaphor from a classical writer of the period, but it seems to have been a false memory. There is a quote from Epictetus that usually comes up, but it is different.

Cross-bearing in Luke (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Sverre Bøe p. 74-75 (available on google books) notes that there are no such Jewish or pagan metaphors of crucifixion. Crucifixion had only a shameful meaning.

Do you listen to the Bible Geek? I think this would make a good question for Robert M. Price.

Onias

Well, if the word was 'sword' rather than 'cross', there would be no problem with Jesus saying this prior to the crucifixion!!

I have not listened to the Bible Geek, but I could start. Or somebody else could mention it to Robert Price.

MrMacSon

[edit: as Onias alludes] - Matt 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

aa5874

Your response is most fascinating.

You forgot to mention the entire composition.

"He was pacifist-militant-mild-irate-faithful-dissenter-smart-stupid-liberal-cultist" and a transfiguring sea water walker born of a Ghost and a Virgin

The Jesus character was a composite of Jewish, Greek and Roman mythology and it is documented just like his supposed militancy.

The details in the NT about Jesus are extremely significant because they corroborate what the Jesus cult wrote about his composition for hundreds of years.

Whether Jesus was believed to be a Lamb or a militant "his flesh" was composed by Mythology.

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV And do not forget that Myth characters can fight war.

Revelation 12